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Reminds me of Moon Shares from like 20 years ago. You could buy property on the moon and the company would verify ownership for you. Although this is totally d

by tomp 5y ago

Reminds me of Moon Shares from like 20 years ago. You could buy property on the moon and the company would verify ownership for you. Although this is totally different, because it’s blockchain.

imgabe 5y ago
Except the company that sold Moon shares had no authority to offer ownership over any part of the moon. The blockchain does have authority to offer ownership over particular tokens on that blockchain. Those are valuable so long as there are enough people that agree they are valuable and are willing to exchange other goods and services for them. Oh yeah, kind of like fiat money.
- tomp 5y ago
  Moon Shares were legal ownership over particular tokens that signified (but not enforce in any legal way) ownership of land on the moon. Just like NFTs are legal ownership over particular tokens that signify (but not enforce in any legal way) ownership of JPEGs.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    The JPEG is incidental. What you own is the token. You don't need the legal system to enforce your ownership of it because it is essentially impossible for anyone else to assert ownership of it without your private keys. But whatever, think whatever you want. Just know that you're the guy in 1995 ranting about how this silly Internet fad is just something nerds waste time with.
    - tomp 5y ago
      Owning the token representing a claim on a JPEG is equivalent to owning the token representing a claim on moon land. In 1995 most of the uses of the internet were stupid. Eventually, they became useful. Hopefully the same happens with crypto
      - imgabe 5y ago
        Is it really equivalent? Are you sure you can't think of any differences between a JPEG and a piece of land?
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  What do you mean "except"? Within the moon share ecosystem, moon shares have the exact same kind of authority. Value's always worth what someone will pay, sure. But blockchain authority isn't more special than any other database. It has some fancy properties, but they don't affect the authority.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Authority on the blockchain is validated by a bunch of different actors, none who trust each other but reaches consensus anyways. Authority within the moon share ecosystem is validated only by the people who own the company.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      That might matter in a niche case where the ownership of my moon share database entry is in dispute. (And each system has positives and negatives, blockchains aren't a strict upgrade.) But the potential authority over the actual moon is the same under both systems.
      - imgabe 5y ago
        Ownership only ever matters when there's a dispute. If you go build a house on a piece of land, and nobody ever comes along and disputes whether you own that land, does it matter whether you do or not? I mean, we even built into our laws that if you do that and nobody disputes it for long enough, then you get to officially own the land.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        > Ownership only ever matters when there's a dispute. Right. And a blockchain only solves a tiny percentage of ownership issues. It solves those issues with powerful mathematical certainty, and if you could live inside a blockchain your problems would be solved*, but don't confuse that sliver with the full set of real-world ownership issues that exist with or without a blockchain being involved. * if there are no bugs or hacks
beardyw 5y ago
You may just have opened a Pandora's box.
- Closi 5y ago
  Well you can almost buy an NFT for a virtual plot of moon land in the moon metaverse. https://nftmoon.space/en/home/ https://nftmoon.space/en/home/ How anyone thinks all this isn’t a bubble is beyond me…
  - beardyw 5y ago
    Ha, of course, a virtual moon, better still!
  - 1ark 5y ago
    Are games with virtual assets bubbles? The whole NFT space might be, but it's still value creation analog to games with virtual assets. Last 15 years we've gone from MMOs with lots of game and in some of them you could buy land plots, and of course shiny armor. To less game with casual mobile games and loot boxes, to now no game with social media flexing and NFTs.
    - Closi 5y ago
      > Are games with virtual assets bubbles? As an investment asset? Almost certainly. Nobody is going to want your CSGO skins in 20 years time when it doesn't have any players anymore, and we don't often hear about $50k second life purchases anymore when they were a weekly news item in the noughties. If you buy one because you want to play with it? Fine, that's not a bubble. Enjoy! If you are just buying one just because you think the value will go up, and the asset doesn't generate any returns other than the price people are willing to pay for it, and other people primarily want it because they think the price is going to go up - you are probably in a bubble.
      - 1ark 5y ago
        I think that's a good clarification, I agree with your point-of-view. The question is for how long this JPEG-NFT-bubble will go on, as long as Second Life or longer/shorter. The word "bubble" can be a bit loose definition, it might inflate/deflate slow/fast; and depending on that be relevant or irrelevant. Usually people seem to mean fast and blow off top, which might not necessarily be the case.
xondono 5y ago
> Although this is totally different, because it’s blockchain. Except the blockchain only keeps the url, so the “content” doesn’t get any of the properties of the blockchain
- Hamuko 5y ago
  There's blockchain somewhere in there, so that means that the technology is great and will change the world.
- xvector 5y ago
  Incorrect, often NFTs contain the hash of the content, where the content itself is pinned to IPFS. That said, tokens that are not pinned to IPFS are fucking worthless, and it's hard to tell whether an NFT is pinned to IPFS unless you're skilled at navigating Ethereum contacts.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    IPFS drops content that's not seeded. Unless you have a backup, you're not going to be able to recover a matching file.
Vetch 5y ago
NFTs are probably best thought of as a recapitulation of status goods into the digital world, outside video games. The physical good versions has never made sense to me either. Thorstein Veblen already in the late 1800s had pointed out that an object's utility as a status signal increases in tandem with its uselessness. The object must then also be recognized among peers as difficult to obtain. For the moon shares analogy to work, being objectively worthless or grossly overvalued is insufficient, it had to have also been exclusive and coveted among the "high class".
- Azsy 5y ago
  I don't think the comparison holds well enough. The vast majority is in it in the hopes to get richer. its closer to tulip mania with a 'distributed' MLM pyramid scheme twist.
  - Vetch 5y ago
    You're completely correct that over-exuberance, gambles and scams are playing a large role in the amount of money flowing. It is unclear whether the current level of openness compared to the usually highly elitist gate kept artworld will persist. There is nonetheless a clear mapping to physical art world collections in terms of owning a rare work by a skilled artist and having it connected to some trusted proof representing a unique transaction with that artist.
    - JohnFen 5y ago
      I don't see that mapping at all. If you own a rare work by a skilled artist, you are in possession of a unique physical item. If you own an NFT, you are not. All you "own" is proof that you paid some money to someone.
- GDC7 5y ago
  > NFTs are probably best thought of as a recapitulation of status goods into the digital world Status cannot be manufactured, it spurs naturally due to having rare things such as a big mansion, grammys, academy awards, winning the Super Bowl , winning the NBA title, winning the World Series etc. All those things are both rare and cannot be copied. NFTs instead are easily copied idividually (right click) or even in bulk as this torrent file proves. Second life did a much better job at representing status goods in the digital world than NFTs. And I know people in here don't want to hear it, but given its history and its budget Zuck's Meta will improve upon what Second Life did and knock it out of the park like it did with social networks.
lobocinza 5y ago
Also many of the involved are lunatics shouting "to the moon" as a mantra.

by tomp 5y ago

Reminds me of Moon Shares from like 20 years ago. You could buy property on the moon and the company would verify ownership for you. Although this is totally different, because it’s blockchain.

imgabe 5y ago

Except the company that sold Moon shares had no authority to offer ownership over any part of the moon. The blockchain does have authority to offer ownership over particular tokens on that blockchain. Those are valuable so long as there are enough people that agree they are valuable and are willing to exchange other goods and services for them. Oh yeah, kind of like fiat money.

tomp 5y ago
Moon Shares were legal ownership over particular tokens that signified (but not enforce in any legal way) ownership of land on the moon. Just like NFTs are legal ownership over particular tokens that signify (but not enforce in any legal way) ownership of JPEGs.
- imgabe 5y ago
  The JPEG is incidental. What you own is the token. You don't need the legal system to enforce your ownership of it because it is essentially impossible for anyone else to assert ownership of it without your private keys. But whatever, think whatever you want. Just know that you're the guy in 1995 ranting about how this silly Internet fad is just something nerds waste time with.
  - tomp 5y ago
    Owning the token representing a claim on a JPEG is equivalent to owning the token representing a claim on moon land. In 1995 most of the uses of the internet were stupid. Eventually, they became useful. Hopefully the same happens with crypto
    - imgabe 5y ago
      Is it really equivalent? Are you sure you can't think of any differences between a JPEG and a piece of land?
Dylan16807 5y ago
What do you mean "except"? Within the moon share ecosystem, moon shares have the exact same kind of authority. Value's always worth what someone will pay, sure. But blockchain authority isn't more special than any other database. It has some fancy properties, but they don't affect the authority.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Authority on the blockchain is validated by a bunch of different actors, none who trust each other but reaches consensus anyways. Authority within the moon share ecosystem is validated only by the people who own the company.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    That might matter in a niche case where the ownership of my moon share database entry is in dispute. (And each system has positives and negatives, blockchains aren't a strict upgrade.) But the potential authority over the actual moon is the same under both systems.
    - imgabe 5y ago
      Ownership only ever matters when there's a dispute. If you go build a house on a piece of land, and nobody ever comes along and disputes whether you own that land, does it matter whether you do or not? I mean, we even built into our laws that if you do that and nobody disputes it for long enough, then you get to officially own the land.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        > Ownership only ever matters when there's a dispute. Right. And a blockchain only solves a tiny percentage of ownership issues. It solves those issues with powerful mathematical certainty, and if you could live inside a blockchain your problems would be solved*, but don't confuse that sliver with the full set of real-world ownership issues that exist with or without a blockchain being involved. * if there are no bugs or hacks

beardyw 5y ago

You may just have opened a Pandora's box.

Closi 5y ago
Well you can almost buy an NFT for a virtual plot of moon land in the moon metaverse. https://nftmoon.space/en/home/ https://nftmoon.space/en/home/ How anyone thinks all this isn’t a bubble is beyond me…
- beardyw 5y ago
  Ha, of course, a virtual moon, better still!
- 1ark 5y ago
  Are games with virtual assets bubbles? The whole NFT space might be, but it's still value creation analog to games with virtual assets. Last 15 years we've gone from MMOs with lots of game and in some of them you could buy land plots, and of course shiny armor. To less game with casual mobile games and loot boxes, to now no game with social media flexing and NFTs.
  - Closi 5y ago
    > Are games with virtual assets bubbles? As an investment asset? Almost certainly. Nobody is going to want your CSGO skins in 20 years time when it doesn't have any players anymore, and we don't often hear about $50k second life purchases anymore when they were a weekly news item in the noughties. If you buy one because you want to play with it? Fine, that's not a bubble. Enjoy! If you are just buying one just because you think the value will go up, and the asset doesn't generate any returns other than the price people are willing to pay for it, and other people primarily want it because they think the price is going to go up - you are probably in a bubble.
    - 1ark 5y ago
      I think that's a good clarification, I agree with your point-of-view. The question is for how long this JPEG-NFT-bubble will go on, as long as Second Life or longer/shorter. The word "bubble" can be a bit loose definition, it might inflate/deflate slow/fast; and depending on that be relevant or irrelevant. Usually people seem to mean fast and blow off top, which might not necessarily be the case.

xondono 5y ago

> Although this is totally different, because it’s blockchain. Except the blockchain only keeps the url, so the “content” doesn’t get any of the properties of the blockchain

Hamuko 5y ago
There's blockchain somewhere in there, so that means that the technology is great and will change the world.
xvector 5y ago
Incorrect, often NFTs contain the hash of the content, where the content itself is pinned to IPFS. That said, tokens that are not pinned to IPFS are fucking worthless, and it's hard to tell whether an NFT is pinned to IPFS unless you're skilled at navigating Ethereum contacts.
- XorNot 5y ago
  IPFS drops content that's not seeded. Unless you have a backup, you're not going to be able to recover a matching file.

Vetch 5y ago

NFTs are probably best thought of as a recapitulation of status goods into the digital world, outside video games. The physical good versions has never made sense to me either. Thorstein Veblen already in the late 1800s had pointed out that an object's utility as a status signal increases in tandem with its uselessness. The object must then also be recognized among peers as difficult to obtain. For the moon shares analogy to work, being objectively worthless or grossly overvalued is insufficient, it had to have also been exclusive and coveted among the "high class".

Azsy 5y ago
I don't think the comparison holds well enough. The vast majority is in it in the hopes to get richer. its closer to tulip mania with a 'distributed' MLM pyramid scheme twist.
- Vetch 5y ago
  You're completely correct that over-exuberance, gambles and scams are playing a large role in the amount of money flowing. It is unclear whether the current level of openness compared to the usually highly elitist gate kept artworld will persist. There is nonetheless a clear mapping to physical art world collections in terms of owning a rare work by a skilled artist and having it connected to some trusted proof representing a unique transaction with that artist.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    I don't see that mapping at all. If you own a rare work by a skilled artist, you are in possession of a unique physical item. If you own an NFT, you are not. All you "own" is proof that you paid some money to someone.
GDC7 5y ago
> NFTs are probably best thought of as a recapitulation of status goods into the digital world Status cannot be manufactured, it spurs naturally due to having rare things such as a big mansion, grammys, academy awards, winning the Super Bowl , winning the NBA title, winning the World Series etc. All those things are both rare and cannot be copied. NFTs instead are easily copied idividually (right click) or even in bulk as this torrent file proves. Second life did a much better job at representing status goods in the digital world than NFTs. And I know people in here don't want to hear it, but given its history and its budget Zuck's Meta will improve upon what Second Life did and knock it out of the park like it did with social networks.

lobocinza 5y ago

Also many of the involved are lunatics shouting "to the moon" as a mantra.