8 ms·

" he was apparently good at managing the program." That's one thing a lot of people don't understand. A lot of these monsters aren't just monsters but they are

" he was apparently good at managing the program." That's one thing a lot of people don't understand. A lot of these monsters aren't just monsters but they are also very capable. Beria was a good manager, so was Himmler who led the Nazi SS. Stalin also was a hard worker and a master bureaucrat.

Animats 5y ago
A lot of these monsters aren't just monsters but they are also very capable. Scary thought for today: what happens when MAGA world finds someone with not just charisma, but competence and energy?
- RealityVoid 5y ago
  I'm not even from the US but that possibility is horrifying to me.
- ldehaan 5y ago
  Not much more than what is currently sanctioned by all the people who work in the government and aren't elected. You don't have to be maga to destroy a country, just the kind of small minded person who would think that it is possible to do so, and so out of fear of being called names, and the local Karen giving you the dirty eye at the hoa meetings, you would lie down and let the self ascribed "adults" take care of "it" for you, instead of thinking for yourself and questioning authority. ;)
  - ldehaan 5y ago
    This reads better with /n's
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  > what happens when MAGA world finds someone with not just charisma, but competence and energy? Trump was the most effective on policy since Roosevelt. Unlike the stiff that's in office today.
- dzonga 5y ago
  like a tom cotton ? most people don't realize how close that reality is to come to fruition.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  That’s what I am thinking. It doesn’t even have to be MAGA only. I bet wokeness could also turn into a dictatorship with the right leader. That’s why rohe current US political climate where people think that the other side is evil and can’t be negotiated with is so dangerous. The right leader can make a case that there is a dangerous crisis and that laws have to be suspended to deal with the threat and voila you have a dictatorship that’s supported by half the population.
  - simtel20 5y ago
    Please let's not "both sides" this. It's the maga crowd who have fallen into a cult of personality and are excusing those personalities for their incompetence and its results. Until that appears from another vector it is dishonest and misleading to project this on any other group.
    - roenxi 5y ago
      That is routine for US politics; partisans always forgive their team for incompetence and its results. I think only catastrophes as egregious as Afghanistan (all the way through from Bush to Biden) have managed to pierce the partisan distortion field.
  - ReactiveJelly 5y ago
    That's why I'm pre-committing against the death penalty. Even murderers shouldn't be killed by the state. [1] I invite anyone on the right to join me in this stance - It puts a cap on how bad the consequences for our political positions can get. [1] There's a bunch of edge cases for self-defense and how to apprehend people. I don't have the time to get into these. Most people know what I mean by "Abolish the death penalty".
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > I bet wokeness could also turn into a dictatorship with the right leader. What is that based on? The progressive left heavily supports the democratic process, they don't try to prevent anyone from voting, they haven't elected anyone who advocates that. They also control no state or national executive positions and no legislatures, while the GOP recently controlled the White House, regularly controls both houses of Congress, and controls many governorships and state legislatures - and openly use that power to prevent people from voting them out. In many states, the voters cannot choose who runs their legislatures.
- _dain_ 5y ago
  then America would be Made Great Again
- JeremyNT 5y ago
  Don't worry, the US electoral process is very effective at screening out competence in candidates for national office.
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    That's what the Germans thought until the Nazis started working the system. I bet if Trump had been a little smarter, sometimes kept his mouth shut and not kicked people around all the time, he may have got away with much more.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    The smart and competent know this, and put on a persona, like Bush II's drawl or Boris Johnson, who intentionally ruffles his hair - as that is the image he wants to project.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Oh, well, that's pretty obvious, they revealed all the plays already.
narrator 5y ago
Beria's daughter in law mused to Simon Sebag Montefiore, a recent Stalin biographer, in an interview that "Beria was the kind of man who, if he lived in the United States, might very well have become chairman of General Motors."
- ectopod 5y ago
  This is one of the benefits of capitalism. It provides a relatively harmless occupation for the monsters.
  - trhway 5y ago
    Boys from Brazil.
lmilcin 5y ago
You are underestimating how effective a "management" technique is demonstrating that you can shoot underperforming minions. A lot of that "management" was simply terrorizing people to do your bidding. So, no, he most likely wasn't a good manager the same way a bank robber isn't showing "good interpersonal skills" because he was able to convince all patrons to sit by the wall and employees to open the vault.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  No, this is demonstrably false by contrasting this with all the many (most?) totalitarian "managers" who had the same abilities to terrorize people but were rather ineffective despite that. There can be an obvious difference between the personal abilities of two people in a similar role, even if that role is evil.
- lazypenguin 5y ago
  I would also say not to underestimate the effort required to be in the position where you are making the threats rather than on the receiving end. A rise to that position also includes effectively managing your rivals into oblivion.
  - lmilcin 5y ago
    Of course. I assume it was honest, full time job. And a lot of overtime, possibly. He had to be good at something to get so far. I am just arguing that it is difficult to call it "management".
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I would also say not to underestimate the effort required to be in the position where you are making the threats rather than on the receiving end That requires skill, but often more sales than management.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    I am willing to agree. That is one of the reasons I sometimes feel people do not treat Putin seriously enough. The guy rose through ranks of US equivalent of CIA. You do not get there purely by luck. You do need skills including management.
wellthisisgreat 5y ago
There is a really interesting take on Beria in what is possibly the best Stalin's biography ("Court of the Red Tzar"). Apparently, Beria saw himself a successor to Stalin who would put the country onto a milder course, and he was looking forward to redeeming himself in the face of history. There was something to the effect of him saying that his children would get educated at Oxford. And he did not mean it how current Russian elites do it (so that their seed can escape the country they have been destroying), but rather to highlight his appreciation for Western values / education / culture and willingness to learn from the recent WW2 allies and adapt their methods on USSR territory. The whole idea of "my children will study at Oxford" coming from someone like Beria was shocking. Beria was by all means a horrible person. But Khruschev (or anybody else really that high up the Soviet totem pole) was as much of an executioner and a murderer. It's just that Khruschev has won and he got to make Beria a (justified) boogeyman. Now we know of Khruschev as just an inefficient manager who took off his shoe at UN and not as a person who called arresting 308 people a poor performance for 1936 Moscow or a person who orchestrated bloody repressions in Ukraine. At the same time, although Beria's activities were pure terror during Stalin's rule, chances are, if Beria did come to power, he'd have been a better ruler than Kruschev from the humanistic perspective (less people would have been murdered and sent to camps, less errors made etc.). But that's a lot of "ifs". It does sound wild (to me as well), but then there is evidence of USSR party elites (e.g. Kaganovich) turning from maniacs and terrorists into peaceful bureaucrats overnight upon Stalin's death.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  “It does sound wild (to me as well), but then there is evidence of USSR party elites (e.g. Kaganovich) turning from maniacs and terrorists into peaceful bureaucrats overnight upon Stalin's death.” Same happened in Germany. Nazis turned practically overnight into exemplary democrats.
  - a0-prw 5y ago
    Yes, it's amazing how civilized people can be when their paycheck depends on it XD
- 5y ago
paganel 5y ago
The same goes for today's leaders of organised crime, you have be CEO-material in order to manage 'Ndrangheta's ~50 billion euros business [1], it's not enough just to be able to kill some guys on a dark street in Catanzaro anymore. [1] https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210113-ndrangheta-crime-group-biggest-mafia-trial-in-decades-kicks-off-in-italy https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210113-ndrangheta-crime...
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  True. El Chapo or Pablo Escobar were excellent leaders and businessmen besides being remorseless killers.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    What is that based on?
    - spaetzleesser 5y ago
      They built and ran billion dollar international organizations that employed thousands of people and managed to not get killed or arrested for a long time. That's not an east thing to do in my book
- TomAbel 5y ago
  Here is a insightful blog post from Erik Bernhardsson on Business secrets from terrible people[1] where he writes about management lessons from the Taliban, Theranos, Al-Qaeda and The Black Kings a crack-dealing gang in Chicago. And here is an interesting article from the Economist on management lessons from Mexico’s drug lords[2] [1]https://erikbern.com/2018/08/16/business-secrets-from-terrible-people.html https://erikbern.com/2018/08/16/business-secrets-from-terrib... [2]https://www.economist.com/business/2014/06/25/narconomics https://www.economist.com/business/2014/06/25/narconomics Archive of the Economist article https://archive.md/EU3Wd https://archive.md/EU3Wd
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Animats 5y ago

A lot of these monsters aren't just monsters but they are also very capable. Scary thought for today: what happens when MAGA world finds someone with not just charisma, but competence and energy?

RealityVoid 5y ago
I'm not even from the US but that possibility is horrifying to me.
ldehaan 5y ago
Not much more than what is currently sanctioned by all the people who work in the government and aren't elected. You don't have to be maga to destroy a country, just the kind of small minded person who would think that it is possible to do so, and so out of fear of being called names, and the local Karen giving you the dirty eye at the hoa meetings, you would lie down and let the self ascribed "adults" take care of "it" for you, instead of thinking for yourself and questioning authority. ;)
- ldehaan 5y ago
  This reads better with /n's
redis_mlc 5y ago
> what happens when MAGA world finds someone with not just charisma, but competence and energy? Trump was the most effective on policy since Roosevelt. Unlike the stiff that's in office today.
dzonga 5y ago
like a tom cotton ? most people don't realize how close that reality is to come to fruition.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
That’s what I am thinking. It doesn’t even have to be MAGA only. I bet wokeness could also turn into a dictatorship with the right leader. That’s why rohe current US political climate where people think that the other side is evil and can’t be negotiated with is so dangerous. The right leader can make a case that there is a dangerous crisis and that laws have to be suspended to deal with the threat and voila you have a dictatorship that’s supported by half the population.
- simtel20 5y ago
  Please let's not "both sides" this. It's the maga crowd who have fallen into a cult of personality and are excusing those personalities for their incompetence and its results. Until that appears from another vector it is dishonest and misleading to project this on any other group.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    That is routine for US politics; partisans always forgive their team for incompetence and its results. I think only catastrophes as egregious as Afghanistan (all the way through from Bush to Biden) have managed to pierce the partisan distortion field.
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  That's why I'm pre-committing against the death penalty. Even murderers shouldn't be killed by the state. [1] I invite anyone on the right to join me in this stance - It puts a cap on how bad the consequences for our political positions can get. [1] There's a bunch of edge cases for self-defense and how to apprehend people. I don't have the time to get into these. Most people know what I mean by "Abolish the death penalty".
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > I bet wokeness could also turn into a dictatorship with the right leader. What is that based on? The progressive left heavily supports the democratic process, they don't try to prevent anyone from voting, they haven't elected anyone who advocates that. They also control no state or national executive positions and no legislatures, while the GOP recently controlled the White House, regularly controls both houses of Congress, and controls many governorships and state legislatures - and openly use that power to prevent people from voting them out. In many states, the voters cannot choose who runs their legislatures.
_dain_ 5y ago
then America would be Made Great Again
JeremyNT 5y ago
Don't worry, the US electoral process is very effective at screening out competence in candidates for national office.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  That's what the Germans thought until the Nazis started working the system. I bet if Trump had been a little smarter, sometimes kept his mouth shut and not kicked people around all the time, he may have got away with much more.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  The smart and competent know this, and put on a persona, like Bush II's drawl or Boris Johnson, who intentionally ruffles his hair - as that is the image he wants to project.
emodendroket 5y ago
Oh, well, that's pretty obvious, they revealed all the plays already.

narrator 5y ago

Beria's daughter in law mused to Simon Sebag Montefiore, a recent Stalin biographer, in an interview that "Beria was the kind of man who, if he lived in the United States, might very well have become chairman of General Motors."

ectopod 5y ago
This is one of the benefits of capitalism. It provides a relatively harmless occupation for the monsters.
- trhway 5y ago
  Boys from Brazil.

lmilcin 5y ago

You are underestimating how effective a "management" technique is demonstrating that you can shoot underperforming minions. A lot of that "management" was simply terrorizing people to do your bidding. So, no, he most likely wasn't a good manager the same way a bank robber isn't showing "good interpersonal skills" because he was able to convince all patrons to sit by the wall and employees to open the vault.

PeterisP 5y ago
No, this is demonstrably false by contrasting this with all the many (most?) totalitarian "managers" who had the same abilities to terrorize people but were rather ineffective despite that. There can be an obvious difference between the personal abilities of two people in a similar role, even if that role is evil.
lazypenguin 5y ago
I would also say not to underestimate the effort required to be in the position where you are making the threats rather than on the receiving end. A rise to that position also includes effectively managing your rivals into oblivion.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  Of course. I assume it was honest, full time job. And a lot of overtime, possibly. He had to be good at something to get so far. I am just arguing that it is difficult to call it "management".
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I would also say not to underestimate the effort required to be in the position where you are making the threats rather than on the receiving end That requires skill, but often more sales than management.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  I am willing to agree. That is one of the reasons I sometimes feel people do not treat Putin seriously enough. The guy rose through ranks of US equivalent of CIA. You do not get there purely by luck. You do need skills including management.

wellthisisgreat 5y ago

There is a really interesting take on Beria in what is possibly the best Stalin's biography ("Court of the Red Tzar"). Apparently, Beria saw himself a successor to Stalin who would put the country onto a milder course, and he was looking forward to redeeming himself in the face of history. There was something to the effect of him saying that his children would get educated at Oxford. And he did not mean it how current Russian elites do it (so that their seed can escape the country they have been destroying), but rather to highlight his appreciation for Western values / education / culture and willingness to learn from the recent WW2 allies and adapt their methods on USSR territory. The whole idea of "my children will study at Oxford" coming from someone like Beria was shocking. Beria was by all means a horrible person. But Khruschev (or anybody else really that high up the Soviet totem pole) was as much of an executioner and a murderer. It's just that Khruschev has won and he got to make Beria a (justified) boogeyman. Now we know of Khruschev as just an inefficient manager who took off his shoe at UN and not as a person who called arresting 308 people a poor performance for 1936 Moscow or a person who orchestrated bloody repressions in Ukraine. At the same time, although Beria's activities were pure terror during Stalin's rule, chances are, if Beria did come to power, he'd have been a better ruler than Kruschev from the humanistic perspective (less people would have been murdered and sent to camps, less errors made etc.). But that's a lot of "ifs". It does sound wild (to me as well), but then there is evidence of USSR party elites (e.g. Kaganovich) turning from maniacs and terrorists into peaceful bureaucrats overnight upon Stalin's death.

spaetzleesser 5y ago
“It does sound wild (to me as well), but then there is evidence of USSR party elites (e.g. Kaganovich) turning from maniacs and terrorists into peaceful bureaucrats overnight upon Stalin's death.” Same happened in Germany. Nazis turned practically overnight into exemplary democrats.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  Yes, it's amazing how civilized people can be when their paycheck depends on it XD
5y ago

paganel 5y ago

The same goes for today's leaders of organised crime, you have be CEO-material in order to manage 'Ndrangheta's ~50 billion euros business [1], it's not enough just to be able to kill some guys on a dark street in Catanzaro anymore. [1] https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210113-ndrangheta-crime-group-biggest-mafia-trial-in-decades-kicks-off-in-italy https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210113-ndrangheta-crime...

spaetzleesser 5y ago
True. El Chapo or Pablo Escobar were excellent leaders and businessmen besides being remorseless killers.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  What is that based on?
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    They built and ran billion dollar international organizations that employed thousands of people and managed to not get killed or arrested for a long time. That's not an east thing to do in my book
TomAbel 5y ago
Here is a insightful blog post from Erik Bernhardsson on Business secrets from terrible people[1] where he writes about management lessons from the Taliban, Theranos, Al-Qaeda and The Black Kings a crack-dealing gang in Chicago. And here is an interesting article from the Economist on management lessons from Mexico’s drug lords[2] [1]https://erikbern.com/2018/08/16/business-secrets-from-terrible-people.html https://erikbern.com/2018/08/16/business-secrets-from-terrib... [2]https://www.economist.com/business/2014/06/25/narconomics https://www.economist.com/business/2014/06/25/narconomics Archive of the Economist article https://archive.md/EU3Wd https://archive.md/EU3Wd
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]