5 ms·

You're not going to stop a junkie from shooting up (without a comprehensive, life-changing program). So barring that, you might as well teach them how to be mo

by blunte 5y ago

You're not going to stop a junkie from shooting up (without a comprehensive, life-changing program). So barring that, you might as well teach them how to be more safe so they don't end up in a hospital spending your tax money for emergency care... or worse, dead somewhere and likewise then consuming public funds to deal with it. [added] Since this is such a controversial topic, I would recommend reading about Portugal's approach to solving drug problems (hint, it has been quite successful(): https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po...

DantesKite 5y ago
You can stop a junkie from shooting up by imprisoning them, or better yet, putting them through drug rehab. Everything else is not a solution and only exacerbates the problem. There's nothing safe about staying addicted to drugs.
- pwthornton 5y ago
  Wait until you find out about drug abuse in prisons.
- blunte 5y ago
  Putting a junkie in prison will indeed stop them, for the time they are in jail. But once they get out, they will return to the life they know. And then you're back with the original problem, but you've now also spent a ton of money to imprison them. Obviously there's nothing safe about being addicted to drugs. But there are certainly methods of drug use which have wildly varied risk levels. Same for other things - drinking alcohol, eating unhealthy foods, etc. Portugal is the best example of how to tackle the drug problem. There are many articles, but here's one: https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po...
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    portugal does arrest drug users, and drug dealers. the users get treatment and the dealers get punished, neither of which SF deigns to do. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451913061380476932.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451913061380476932.html
  - rufus_foreman 5y ago
    >> Putting a junkie in prison will indeed stop them, for the time they are in jail Sadly, no. The junkies I knew, back when I knew junkies, were terrified of rehab, not of prison. One of them told me, to justify behavior that was mystifying to me, "I can still use in prison".
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > You can stop a junkie from shooting up by imprisoning them, or better yet, putting them through drug rehab. Those responses have been tried for many years, with very poor results. Also, it's not clear that there is anything criminal about the vice of drugs, and thus taking away their freedom would be highly unjust. We take away people's freedom for bad behavior or because other people are uncomfortable. Based on the little I know, what does help people is giving them access to social services. I think several American cities are pioneering bringing the services to the person - when authorities are called, they don't send police or only police, but people who can connect the person to various agencies. Apparently this approach results in a much higher rate of service use (which makes sense commercially - if someone had to wait in long lines and fill out dozens of forms, and then face long delays for service, you wouldn't have many customers. If someone showed up, when need the service, and offered it on the spot, you'd sell a few more). And those people gain more stable lives and are able to better care for themselves. We can see plenty of wealthy professionals turn to damaging behavior under great stress. Imagine how they would do if added to that stress is having no roof or reliable food, the loss of safety, the loss of any credibility - even enough to get basic jobs, the harassment, etc. But then them: 'We'll take care of the shelter, food, etc., and here are classes to help cope with your other problems without using drugs', and I can imagine they would have a much better chance.
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  There are drugs available in jails and prisons. Incarceration does not solve addiction and worse it groups troubled people together.
nbardy 5y ago
I’d welcome Portugal’s approach, but it is very different. San Francisco doesn’t prosecute dealers, and encourages open drug markets and camps on the street by funding and encouraging the behavior with permanent enabling, no path towards rehabilitation, and lack of law enforcement on the dealers and the non-drug crimes the commit. Compassion and understanding of drug use issues is a different world than enabling spiraling dens of despair.
_dain_ 5y ago
but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged. it's like the people running the city have completely giving up on expecting any kind of standards of public decency or even upholding civilization itself. they gave up on collecting trash, they gave up on arresting thieves, they gave up building houses, they're considering whether to give up teaching calculus. nothing we can do! we'll just manage the decline into thirdworldization, be careful not to overdose while you drug yourself into a stupor.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  > but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged So what? An addict is going to shoot up whether it’s tolerated or not, and non-addicts aren’t going to take up heroin because they say a billboard. If you really want to end it, it’s going to need to be a lot more comprehensive, expensive, and expansive than the presence or absence of a billboard.
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    okay, how about we put up billboards saying >When you smash a window to rob a store, be careful not to cut yourself on the glass. Wear thick gloves. after all, a billboard is not going to stop a burglar, is it? and if we're going to have burglaries, it's better that the burglars don't injure themselves while committing their crimes, because after all it will reduce the burden on hospitals. it will also protect the store owners from liability! I'm not a nietzchean but I start to sympathize with how zarathustra must have felt when he saw those pathetic last men, bleating about "harm reduction" as they huddled together for warmth.
    - tekproxy 5y ago
      Just move. California doesn't deserve you. People there think you can only use carrots and sticks are immoral.
      - _dain_ 5y ago
yeetman21 5y ago
Would allowing nature to take its course and having them die really be that bad? It is better for society for them to not exist (in a peaceful manner ie not outright jailing/ worse) or for them to exist and harass innocent bystanders? Think about it this way, if they did not exist, and you had the power to create them, would would willingly/ purposefully create them? They are taking up resource that could be better spent else where such as investing in education or infrastructure or even tax breaks for the middle class
- _dain_ 5y ago
  I'm the GP poster but I don't agree with this social darwinist crap at all. I bet you would never apply this logic if your own kids fell into drug addiction. it is not "nature" taking its course here, it is a sick, stupid society that tolerates the proliferation of mind-altering poisons and then shovels vast amounts of public money into useless fake "rehab" charities run by politically-connected grifters. there are people out there getting rich off all this misery and it isn't just the dealers.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    That gets at the heart of the issue, which is our weak social and familiar bonds. Addiction remains prevalent because so few individuals or social groups have the courage and standing to significantly intervene. A parent would hopefully neither let their child die nor abandon them to an enabling harm reduction program. But most adults do not have anyone who loves them enough to take them to a safe place—likely at some expense—for two weeks to help with withdrawal. It’s heartbreaking.
- dang 5y ago
  Please keep this sort of generic flamewar comment off HN. It will only lead to hell.
  - yeetman21 5y ago
    Sorry, will not happen again

by blunte 5y ago

DantesKite 5y ago

You can stop a junkie from shooting up by imprisoning them, or better yet, putting them through drug rehab. Everything else is not a solution and only exacerbates the problem. There's nothing safe about staying addicted to drugs.

pwthornton 5y ago
Wait until you find out about drug abuse in prisons.
blunte 5y ago
Putting a junkie in prison will indeed stop them, for the time they are in jail. But once they get out, they will return to the life they know. And then you're back with the original problem, but you've now also spent a ton of money to imprison them. Obviously there's nothing safe about being addicted to drugs. But there are certainly methods of drug use which have wildly varied risk levels. Same for other things - drinking alcohol, eating unhealthy foods, etc. Portugal is the best example of how to tackle the drug problem. There are many articles, but here's one: https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po...
- _dain_ 5y ago
  portugal does arrest drug users, and drug dealers. the users get treatment and the dealers get punished, neither of which SF deigns to do. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451913061380476932.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451913061380476932.html
- rufus_foreman 5y ago
  >> Putting a junkie in prison will indeed stop them, for the time they are in jail Sadly, no. The junkies I knew, back when I knew junkies, were terrified of rehab, not of prison. One of them told me, to justify behavior that was mystifying to me, "I can still use in prison".
wolverine876 5y ago
> You can stop a junkie from shooting up by imprisoning them, or better yet, putting them through drug rehab. Those responses have been tried for many years, with very poor results. Also, it's not clear that there is anything criminal about the vice of drugs, and thus taking away their freedom would be highly unjust. We take away people's freedom for bad behavior or because other people are uncomfortable. Based on the little I know, what does help people is giving them access to social services. I think several American cities are pioneering bringing the services to the person - when authorities are called, they don't send police or only police, but people who can connect the person to various agencies. Apparently this approach results in a much higher rate of service use (which makes sense commercially - if someone had to wait in long lines and fill out dozens of forms, and then face long delays for service, you wouldn't have many customers. If someone showed up, when need the service, and offered it on the spot, you'd sell a few more). And those people gain more stable lives and are able to better care for themselves. We can see plenty of wealthy professionals turn to damaging behavior under great stress. Imagine how they would do if added to that stress is having no roof or reliable food, the loss of safety, the loss of any credibility - even enough to get basic jobs, the harassment, etc. But then them: 'We'll take care of the shelter, food, etc., and here are classes to help cope with your other problems without using drugs', and I can imagine they would have a much better chance.
alphabettsy 5y ago
There are drugs available in jails and prisons. Incarceration does not solve addiction and worse it groups troubled people together.

nbardy 5y ago

I’d welcome Portugal’s approach, but it is very different. San Francisco doesn’t prosecute dealers, and encourages open drug markets and camps on the street by funding and encouraging the behavior with permanent enabling, no path towards rehabilitation, and lack of law enforcement on the dealers and the non-drug crimes the commit. Compassion and understanding of drug use issues is a different world than enabling spiraling dens of despair.

_dain_ 5y ago

but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged. it's like the people running the city have completely giving up on expecting any kind of standards of public decency or even upholding civilization itself. they gave up on collecting trash, they gave up on arresting thieves, they gave up building houses, they're considering whether to give up teaching calculus. nothing we can do! we'll just manage the decline into thirdworldization, be careful not to overdose while you drug yourself into a stupor.

nkrisc 5y ago
> but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged So what? An addict is going to shoot up whether it’s tolerated or not, and non-addicts aren’t going to take up heroin because they say a billboard. If you really want to end it, it’s going to need to be a lot more comprehensive, expensive, and expansive than the presence or absence of a billboard.
- _dain_ 5y ago
  okay, how about we put up billboards saying >When you smash a window to rob a store, be careful not to cut yourself on the glass. Wear thick gloves. after all, a billboard is not going to stop a burglar, is it? and if we're going to have burglaries, it's better that the burglars don't injure themselves while committing their crimes, because after all it will reduce the burden on hospitals. it will also protect the store owners from liability! I'm not a nietzchean but I start to sympathize with how zarathustra must have felt when he saw those pathetic last men, bleating about "harm reduction" as they huddled together for warmth.
  - tekproxy 5y ago
    Just move. California doesn't deserve you. People there think you can only use carrots and sticks are immoral.
    - _dain_ 5y ago

yeetman21 5y ago

Would allowing nature to take its course and having them die really be that bad? It is better for society for them to not exist (in a peaceful manner ie not outright jailing/ worse) or for them to exist and harass innocent bystanders? Think about it this way, if they did not exist, and you had the power to create them, would would willingly/ purposefully create them? They are taking up resource that could be better spent else where such as investing in education or infrastructure or even tax breaks for the middle class

_dain_ 5y ago
I'm the GP poster but I don't agree with this social darwinist crap at all. I bet you would never apply this logic if your own kids fell into drug addiction. it is not "nature" taking its course here, it is a sick, stupid society that tolerates the proliferation of mind-altering poisons and then shovels vast amounts of public money into useless fake "rehab" charities run by politically-connected grifters. there are people out there getting rich off all this misery and it isn't just the dealers.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  That gets at the heart of the issue, which is our weak social and familiar bonds. Addiction remains prevalent because so few individuals or social groups have the courage and standing to significantly intervene. A parent would hopefully neither let their child die nor abandon them to an enabling harm reduction program. But most adults do not have anyone who loves them enough to take them to a safe place—likely at some expense—for two weeks to help with withdrawal. It’s heartbreaking.
dang 5y ago
Please keep this sort of generic flamewar comment off HN. It will only lead to hell.
- yeetman21 5y ago
  Sorry, will not happen again