4 ms·

The notion that a capacitive switch is somehow expensive to manufacture because the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) seems odd to me. All other capacitive sen

The notion that a capacitive switch is somehow expensive to manufacture because the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) seems odd to me. All other capacitive sensing stuff uses bog-standard PCBs with nothing special about them at all and it's not like the rubberdome is hard to manufacture either (considering that a more complex kind of rubberdome mat is the centerpiece in cheap rubberdome membrane keyboards). And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities. Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it.

mattnewton 5y ago
> And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities. I think the Japanese part is being brought up to talk about the cost, as Japan is a higher cost of living country and has higher labour costs as a result. Lots of mass produced "Japanese" goods aren't actually produced in factories with Japanese workers as a result, so the fact that the manufacturing is only done there I think is just highlighting a supply-chain reason for the higher cost (using labour in Japan), without making an argument that the quality comes from that supply chain decision.
nix23 5y ago
>Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it. Because it's a high quality tool, long time ago the US firm IBM made some high quality keyboards too...long time ago. BTW: I can buy 6 HHKB for 1 Iphone (what is the luxury item here?)
- gh02t 5y ago
  IBM keyboards were also astronomically expensive, the Model M was around $250 in 1985 which is something like $600 in 2021 dollars. The modern Unicomp incarnations made on the same tooling are not as nice as the OG Model M's, but they're a reasonable approximation and still only $100. I have no doubt the pricing on the HHKB and other Topre boards provides a very comfortable profit margin. Which is fine, if people are happy with paying for them then it doesn't hurt my feelings. There are other equal quality boards for significantly cheaper, though that's IMO of course.
  - rozab 5y ago
    Wow, I had no idea the Model M was so pricey. I always assumed it was a big standard accessory that became a cult classic
    - formerly_proven 5y ago
      And the Model M is actually the result of a series of cost-reduction measures from prior IBM keyboards, and received numerous cost-cutting changes during its production cycle. Though I'd guess it was a standard accessory - you gonna order an IBM AT PC without a keyboard? Probably not. And that AT would have been around 5000 $ or so, so 250 $ for the keyboard isn't that outrageous. Computers were expensive.
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      For newer versions, the SK-8835 currently goes over $200 used - actually there's one at $199 on ebay with missing keys :) It was my favorite until I got a new thinkpad, with island keys: even if both are membrane, they are just so much better than the mechanical alternatives!
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      I had so many of the things just lying around for so long. I got rid of more of those keyboards than I ever used. Today I bought a 30 year old model M for $150 :/ I guess it’s still a good deal, but I feel kind of stupid now.
  - nix23 5y ago
    >IBM keyboards were also astronomically expensive, And that's exactly what i wanted to say, quality is expensive and has not much todo with luxury in the first place, it's a high quality tool...basta.
    - gh02t 5y ago
      In my opinion it's not really that high quality compared to the competition anymore (though it's still a good keyboard). They used to be, but the high end keyboard market has gone nuts the past few years and the HHKB is not really that competitive anymore for the money. They still have the reputation appeal and have kept the price high despite tougher competition, which is working for them but that is why people criticize them. Not that I necessarily agree with that take, like I said if people are still paying what they ask for them then that's great for them.
chaorace 5y ago
> the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) I've taken apart Topre style boards before. I can absolutely confirm that the internals work differently from a classic rubber dome board. I'm not about to argue that the different mechanism makes Topres somehow special or worth the price of admission, but there's nothing "alleged" about it. I do love the sound they make, though.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  They are different, but it's true the capacitive part is hardly necessary for the feel. Unlike normal mechs, there is almost no chance you're not bottoming out a Topre anyways, so the actuation point could be at the very bottom of travel and still work the same. Also I've tried $40 rubber dome Keytronics that had identical snappy Topre action, and the result was so similar I doubt most Topre users would be able to tell them apart (they might even prefer the Keytronic, the keys were much tighter)
manuelabeledo 5y ago
> And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities. This has nothing to do with ethnicity, but mostly work ethics and attention to detail. It is true that this may not apply to all Japanese products, but they are regarded as good manufacturers, akin to German products in Europe. > Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it. This is true, they are a luxury item. It is also true that they are inherently more durable than other keyboards based on rubber domes, and perhaps not as durable as many other high end mechanical keyboards. A couple years ago, during one of my trips to Japan, I went to BICamera and tried some Topres. They are built like tanks, no doubt about it, and the feeling of the heavier switches was rather pleasant. I still like my mechanical keyboard better (have a thing for heavier switches), but I cannot deny it was a quite good product. Perhaps not worth $300, but I could see them in the $150 to $200 range.
- m0zg 5y ago
  > work ethics and attention to detail This, by the way, is immediately apparent if you are traveling in Japan. You get the impression that the Japanese don't goof off at work. This is especially noticeable with folks who work outside: road work, construction, janitors, etc. Quick, to the point, and you won't see anyone leaning on their shovels like in the US. My already high regard for the Japanese has improved even more after a couple of weeks there.
fomine3 5y ago
Topre is very rock solid because of its origin is for professional inputter. I know many people use same RealForce/HHKB for 10 years (in Japan).
- satysin 5y ago
  Is ten years really that old for a keyboard? My father still uses a generic Dell keyboard he got with a PC in 2002 because he didn’t like all the media keys on the keyboards that came with new computers.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    It also depends on how many typed. Also, IIRC cheap bundled keyboards in 2002 was better quality compared to in 2021. I remembered membrane keyboard bundled with server in 2005 was comfortable.
MrApathy 5y ago
Re: "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards," earlier this year I ordered a Leopold FC980C. It arrived with a warped case that would not lay flat on my desk (tested on multiple surfaces to make sure the problem wasn't with my desk). So much for legendary QA.
- spear 5y ago
  Leopold isn't Japanese, though?
  - MrApathy 5y ago
    Yes, true, Leopold is Korean, however the C boards with Topre switches are made in Japan, though some sources say made in China and inspected in Japan. I believe Leopold sells a similar line of non-Topre keyboards as well, certainly possible that the cases are manufactured elsewhere and imported/sent to various factories based on switch type. Regardless, if final assembly/inspection does occur in Japan, it was quite disappointing to receive a keyboard with such an obvious defect, especially at that price point.
- krackpot 5y ago
  Leopold is a Korean brand.
numpad0 5y ago
The really inexcusable part is they killed off Lite models and jacked up the entry price to where they are. My Lite2 PS/2 Kana-less JP from well before the earthquake is still fine and it was “was $49.99” anywhere back then. I know some RealForce US are real good but no way I’m spending $200 on a keyboard.
- mekster 5y ago
  Lite shouldn't even be called hhkb. It's night and day difference I'm not sure why they made it. Not sure how $200 is any expensive when it makes you feel comfortable for 10 years. Think about return value than the upfront cost.

mattnewton 5y ago

> And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities. I think the Japanese part is being brought up to talk about the cost, as Japan is a higher cost of living country and has higher labour costs as a result. Lots of mass produced "Japanese" goods aren't actually produced in factories with Japanese workers as a result, so the fact that the manufacturing is only done there I think is just highlighting a supply-chain reason for the higher cost (using labour in Japan), without making an argument that the quality comes from that supply chain decision.

nix23 5y ago

>Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it. Because it's a high quality tool, long time ago the US firm IBM made some high quality keyboards too...long time ago. BTW: I can buy 6 HHKB for 1 Iphone (what is the luxury item here?)

gh02t 5y ago
IBM keyboards were also astronomically expensive, the Model M was around $250 in 1985 which is something like $600 in 2021 dollars. The modern Unicomp incarnations made on the same tooling are not as nice as the OG Model M's, but they're a reasonable approximation and still only $100. I have no doubt the pricing on the HHKB and other Topre boards provides a very comfortable profit margin. Which is fine, if people are happy with paying for them then it doesn't hurt my feelings. There are other equal quality boards for significantly cheaper, though that's IMO of course.
- rozab 5y ago
  Wow, I had no idea the Model M was so pricey. I always assumed it was a big standard accessory that became a cult classic
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    And the Model M is actually the result of a series of cost-reduction measures from prior IBM keyboards, and received numerous cost-cutting changes during its production cycle. Though I'd guess it was a standard accessory - you gonna order an IBM AT PC without a keyboard? Probably not. And that AT would have been around 5000 $ or so, so 250 $ for the keyboard isn't that outrageous. Computers were expensive.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    For newer versions, the SK-8835 currently goes over $200 used - actually there's one at $199 on ebay with missing keys :) It was my favorite until I got a new thinkpad, with island keys: even if both are membrane, they are just so much better than the mechanical alternatives!
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    I had so many of the things just lying around for so long. I got rid of more of those keyboards than I ever used. Today I bought a 30 year old model M for $150 :/ I guess it’s still a good deal, but I feel kind of stupid now.
- nix23 5y ago
  >IBM keyboards were also astronomically expensive, And that's exactly what i wanted to say, quality is expensive and has not much todo with luxury in the first place, it's a high quality tool...basta.
  - gh02t 5y ago
    In my opinion it's not really that high quality compared to the competition anymore (though it's still a good keyboard). They used to be, but the high end keyboard market has gone nuts the past few years and the HHKB is not really that competitive anymore for the money. They still have the reputation appeal and have kept the price high despite tougher competition, which is working for them but that is why people criticize them. Not that I necessarily agree with that take, like I said if people are still paying what they ask for them then that's great for them.

chaorace 5y ago

> the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) I've taken apart Topre style boards before. I can absolutely confirm that the internals work differently from a classic rubber dome board. I'm not about to argue that the different mechanism makes Topres somehow special or worth the price of admission, but there's nothing "alleged" about it. I do love the sound they make, though.

BoorishBears 5y ago
They are different, but it's true the capacitive part is hardly necessary for the feel. Unlike normal mechs, there is almost no chance you're not bottoming out a Topre anyways, so the actuation point could be at the very bottom of travel and still work the same. Also I've tried $40 rubber dome Keytronics that had identical snappy Topre action, and the result was so similar I doubt most Topre users would be able to tell them apart (they might even prefer the Keytronic, the keys were much tighter)

manuelabeledo 5y ago

> And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities. This has nothing to do with ethnicity, but mostly work ethics and attention to detail. It is true that this may not apply to all Japanese products, but they are regarded as good manufacturers, akin to German products in Europe. > Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it. This is true, they are a luxury item. It is also true that they are inherently more durable than other keyboards based on rubber domes, and perhaps not as durable as many other high end mechanical keyboards. A couple years ago, during one of my trips to Japan, I went to BICamera and tried some Topres. They are built like tanks, no doubt about it, and the feeling of the heavier switches was rather pleasant. I still like my mechanical keyboard better (have a thing for heavier switches), but I cannot deny it was a quite good product. Perhaps not worth $300, but I could see them in the $150 to $200 range.

m0zg 5y ago
> work ethics and attention to detail This, by the way, is immediately apparent if you are traveling in Japan. You get the impression that the Japanese don't goof off at work. This is especially noticeable with folks who work outside: road work, construction, janitors, etc. Quick, to the point, and you won't see anyone leaning on their shovels like in the US. My already high regard for the Japanese has improved even more after a couple of weeks there.

fomine3 5y ago

Topre is very rock solid because of its origin is for professional inputter. I know many people use same RealForce/HHKB for 10 years (in Japan).

satysin 5y ago
Is ten years really that old for a keyboard? My father still uses a generic Dell keyboard he got with a PC in 2002 because he didn’t like all the media keys on the keyboards that came with new computers.
- fomine3 5y ago
  It also depends on how many typed. Also, IIRC cheap bundled keyboards in 2002 was better quality compared to in 2021. I remembered membrane keyboard bundled with server in 2005 was comfortable.

MrApathy 5y ago

Re: "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards," earlier this year I ordered a Leopold FC980C. It arrived with a warped case that would not lay flat on my desk (tested on multiple surfaces to make sure the problem wasn't with my desk). So much for legendary QA.

spear 5y ago
Leopold isn't Japanese, though?
- MrApathy 5y ago
  Yes, true, Leopold is Korean, however the C boards with Topre switches are made in Japan, though some sources say made in China and inspected in Japan. I believe Leopold sells a similar line of non-Topre keyboards as well, certainly possible that the cases are manufactured elsewhere and imported/sent to various factories based on switch type. Regardless, if final assembly/inspection does occur in Japan, it was quite disappointing to receive a keyboard with such an obvious defect, especially at that price point.
krackpot 5y ago
Leopold is a Korean brand.

numpad0 5y ago

The really inexcusable part is they killed off Lite models and jacked up the entry price to where they are. My Lite2 PS/2 Kana-less JP from well before the earthquake is still fine and it was “was $49.99” anywhere back then. I know some RealForce US are real good but no way I’m spending $200 on a keyboard.

mekster 5y ago
Lite shouldn't even be called hhkb. It's night and day difference I'm not sure why they made it. Not sure how $200 is any expensive when it makes you feel comfortable for 10 years. Think about return value than the upfront cost.