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> It's a dying breed though, complicated "driver assist" systems are becoming standard or even mandated :(. I'm on the opposite side of this. All the new safet

> It's a dying breed though, complicated "driver assist" systems are becoming standard or even mandated :(. I'm on the opposite side of this. All the new safety & driver assist features are the best part about getting a new car. I wouldn't buy a new daily driver that doesn't have blind spot monitoring, collision avoidance, lane keep assist, etc. Once you have these features and you are accustomed to how they work, you can't go back. I drive a 2019 XC40 and these safety features are my favorite part about it. Being able to turn on Pilot Assist on the highway makes driving so much more comfortable, it's like having two people driving at the same time! I don't let my guard down completely of course, but it definitely takes the edge off. I don't find these features getting in my way.

worik 5y ago
I agree that is all good (blind spot monitoring, collision avoidance, lane keep assist, etc). The collection of driver behaviour, and GPS, data is not
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  Do these driver assist systems stop working without an internet connection or something? Seems like you should be able to disable any radios that bother you, unless they intentionally nerfed it.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Do you mean "you can physically destroy the radios if that bothers you"? Because it's not a toggle in a UI.
    - fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
      I’m trying to figure out what the connection is between the driver assist features and the phoning home behavior. Are they just two systems that new cars are likely to have, or are they actually integrated?
      - singlow 5y ago
        Some driver assist features probably need to have map data that has to stay up to date, but probably don't need to send any data back to the manufacturer in order to function.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        In Teslas, my understanding is that the driver assist features also judge your driving quality in real time and send them back to Tesla as a score. And, of course, they use the same sensors and processing hardware. So they are related in that it tends to be the same cars using the same hardware powering both.
- asdff 5y ago
  these base model cars, your hubcap clad toyota yaris et al, do not have gps much less a data connection
HWR_14 5y ago
> I wouldn't buy a new daily driver that doesn't have blind spot monitoring, collision avoidance, lane keep assist, etc. Once you have these features and you are accustomed to how they work, you can't go back. And I don't like them. But only one of us has the government taking away our choice by making them mandatory. I wouldn't mind them if it wasn't for the fact that they universally seem to be points of failure that shorten the lifespan of the car.
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  How does a defeat-able non-essential feature shorten a vehicle’s lifespan?
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    If it's a feature required by the government to be road legal, it's likely not run and/or pass emissions testing if it's not working. And it's a point of failure written by people who are bad at software. Alternatively, computer control of real world systems (e.g. acceleration and braking) can lead to actual accidents, totaling the vehicle. There was that lady who claims her Tesla's software caused a crash, and, without commenting on if that is true, it's plausible.
  - stefan_ 5y ago
    Here is a thing that happens: many countries have more or less comprehensive regular vehicle inspections. If your car is showing a warning light or reports an error on the standardized interface, that can cause you to fail the inspection. What a warning light is shown for is at the discretion of the manufacturer though. One example is Anti-lock braking (ABS), which they made mandatory in 2004. If you bought a car without it in 2003 and have it inspected in 2013, no problem. If you bought a car with ABS in 2004 and the controller for it breaks in 2008, you will fail the inspection - even though your braking is no worse than the 2003 car (ABS was wisely designed to fail safe..).
    - aunty_helen 5y ago
      The point of abs isn’t to improve your braking system. It’s to stop you from panicking in an accident situation, locking up the front wheels and losing the ability to steer. Abs actually very slightly reduces the stopping potential of your brake system. But being able to steer and control your car is a bigger benefit under these circumstances.
necovek 5y ago
I drive a 2019 Volvo as well (bought in 2020), and the "safety" features have activated for me maybe a hundred times! Out of those, safety system was helpful once (arguably) in that it reacted and activated the brakes the same time I pressed them (so it still wasn't really needed, but I can see how it would have helped when I was less attentive due to eg planning to switch lanes and looking at side mirrors). All the other times, it's causing me frustration and pain. It signals a collision as I am avoiding potholes in a tight one-way street and cars parked on both sides of the road (yep, I am going to slam into that parked car for sure — at least it did not forcibly brake which would definitely cause cars behind me to slam into me). It brakes when I am backing out of a parking spot into a street and vehicles appear from the other direction (a lane I was not getting into) — this happens so frequently that I am tempted to turn it off. Pilot Assist on the highway seems to wait too long to slow down as I approach a car in front of me and then it abruptly slows down, yet it requires me to use the turn signal way too early if I want to overtake someone I caught up with: my drive was much more fluid with a simple stay-at-this-speed cruise control of my previous car. I keep all of the "helpers" on (those that can be turned off) just in case I lose focus and because crashing once might be once too many, but I worry how much unpredictable behaviour is going to mess with other drivers causing them to make mistakes instead and crash into me. Perhaps it works well for US roads, but European old-town driving is way too complex for safety features to keep up (esp as Volvo is considered to be among the best manufacturers for safety features, including these new-fangled ones). Edit: and blind spot monitoring — the sales guy was so high on it, yet I don't see the purpose: it's right there flashing on your side mirrors so you have to look at them, yet side mirrors are large enough and concave (like on all modern cars) that if you set them up properly, there's really no blind spot a car or bike can fit in. And I still prefer to look over my shoulder to top it off.
- fletchowns 5y ago
  > All the other times, it's causing me frustration and pain. It signals a collision as I am avoiding potholes in a tight one-way street and cars parked on both sides of the road (yep, I am going to slam into that parked car for sure — at least it did not forcibly brake which would definitely cause cars behind me to slam into me). The only time I've gotten false positives on the collision avoidance was when I was going too fast for the situation. Now it's gotten me to drive slower on these narrow lane situations, which is a good thing! > It brakes when I am backing out of a parking spot into a street and vehicles appear from the other direction (a lane I was not getting into) — this happens so frequently that I am tempted to turn it off. I haven't experienced this personally, but a false positive here doesn't really have any downsides. Ideally every driver would be skilled enough to not back up so far and go into the other lane, but I do see drivers that back out further than necessary and get a corner of the car across the divide of the road. The cross traffic avoidance when backing up is one of my favorites, it's saved me plenty of times when somebody is going way too fast in a parking lot and I'm backing up slowly. > Pilot Assist on the highway seems to wait too long to slow down as I approach a car in front of me and then it abruptly slows down, yet it requires me to use the turn signal way too early if I want to overtake someone I caught up with: my drive was much more fluid with a simple stay-at-this-speed cruise control of my previous car. This situation sounds like you may be driving faster than the flow of traffic, or the follow distance is not set far enough. You can also do the simple stay-at-this-speed cruise control, or adaptive cruise control without the automatic steering capabilities. I am on the west coast of the US so the roads here are well planned and well marked, so maybe that helps. > Edit: and blind spot monitoring — the sales guy was so high on it, yet I don't see the purpose: it's right there flashing on your side mirrors so you have to look at them, yet side mirrors are large enough and concave (like on all modern cars) that if you set them up properly, there's really no blind spot a car or bike can fit in. And I still prefer to look over my shoulder to top it off. Depending on the car, the driver, and how seating position and mirrors are setup, there can still be blind spots despite your best efforts, or have a driver in the next lane in a dark car at night with their lights off accidentally. Nothing wrong with looking at your mirror and still checking over your shoulder, but the blind spot monitoring is still very helpful. That's why the indicator is on the mirror anyways, because they know we are already going to look there before changing lanes. From my experience the safety features are all supplemental to also having good driving habits, they don't replace the need for good habits entirely.
kelnos 5y ago
Yeah, I'm feeling the same. I have an older car (2004 Honda Accord), and I'm looking for a new one. I like the new safety features, but I want to avoid the privacy-invasive data collection garbage.
throw0101a 5y ago
> I wouldn't buy a new daily driver that doesn't have blind spot monitoring, collision avoidance, lane keep assist, etc. And here I am puttering along in my 2003 VW Golf with a manual transmission. :)
malshe 5y ago
In Texas all these are must have features given how terrible we drive!
aidenn0 5y ago
The blind spot monitoring on my car is useless. I call it "the thing that beeps every time I turn on my signal" Unfortunately the rear-cross-traffic is very useful and I can't turn off one without the other.

worik 5y ago

I agree that is all good (blind spot monitoring, collision avoidance, lane keep assist, etc). The collection of driver behaviour, and GPS, data is not

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
Do these driver assist systems stop working without an internet connection or something? Seems like you should be able to disable any radios that bother you, unless they intentionally nerfed it.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Do you mean "you can physically destroy the radios if that bothers you"? Because it's not a toggle in a UI.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
    I’m trying to figure out what the connection is between the driver assist features and the phoning home behavior. Are they just two systems that new cars are likely to have, or are they actually integrated?
    - singlow 5y ago
      Some driver assist features probably need to have map data that has to stay up to date, but probably don't need to send any data back to the manufacturer in order to function.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      In Teslas, my understanding is that the driver assist features also judge your driving quality in real time and send them back to Tesla as a score. And, of course, they use the same sensors and processing hardware. So they are related in that it tends to be the same cars using the same hardware powering both.
asdff 5y ago
these base model cars, your hubcap clad toyota yaris et al, do not have gps much less a data connection

HWR_14 5y ago

> I wouldn't buy a new daily driver that doesn't have blind spot monitoring, collision avoidance, lane keep assist, etc. Once you have these features and you are accustomed to how they work, you can't go back. And I don't like them. But only one of us has the government taking away our choice by making them mandatory. I wouldn't mind them if it wasn't for the fact that they universally seem to be points of failure that shorten the lifespan of the car.

alphabettsy 5y ago
How does a defeat-able non-essential feature shorten a vehicle’s lifespan?
- HWR_14 5y ago
  If it's a feature required by the government to be road legal, it's likely not run and/or pass emissions testing if it's not working. And it's a point of failure written by people who are bad at software. Alternatively, computer control of real world systems (e.g. acceleration and braking) can lead to actual accidents, totaling the vehicle. There was that lady who claims her Tesla's software caused a crash, and, without commenting on if that is true, it's plausible.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  Here is a thing that happens: many countries have more or less comprehensive regular vehicle inspections. If your car is showing a warning light or reports an error on the standardized interface, that can cause you to fail the inspection. What a warning light is shown for is at the discretion of the manufacturer though. One example is Anti-lock braking (ABS), which they made mandatory in 2004. If you bought a car without it in 2003 and have it inspected in 2013, no problem. If you bought a car with ABS in 2004 and the controller for it breaks in 2008, you will fail the inspection - even though your braking is no worse than the 2003 car (ABS was wisely designed to fail safe..).
  - aunty_helen 5y ago
    The point of abs isn’t to improve your braking system. It’s to stop you from panicking in an accident situation, locking up the front wheels and losing the ability to steer. Abs actually very slightly reduces the stopping potential of your brake system. But being able to steer and control your car is a bigger benefit under these circumstances.

necovek 5y ago

I drive a 2019 Volvo as well (bought in 2020), and the "safety" features have activated for me maybe a hundred times! Out of those, safety system was helpful once (arguably) in that it reacted and activated the brakes the same time I pressed them (so it still wasn't really needed, but I can see how it would have helped when I was less attentive due to eg planning to switch lanes and looking at side mirrors). All the other times, it's causing me frustration and pain. It signals a collision as I am avoiding potholes in a tight one-way street and cars parked on both sides of the road (yep, I am going to slam into that parked car for sure — at least it did not forcibly brake which would definitely cause cars behind me to slam into me). It brakes when I am backing out of a parking spot into a street and vehicles appear from the other direction (a lane I was not getting into) — this happens so frequently that I am tempted to turn it off. Pilot Assist on the highway seems to wait too long to slow down as I approach a car in front of me and then it abruptly slows down, yet it requires me to use the turn signal way too early if I want to overtake someone I caught up with: my drive was much more fluid with a simple stay-at-this-speed cruise control of my previous car. I keep all of the "helpers" on (those that can be turned off) just in case I lose focus and because crashing once might be once too many, but I worry how much unpredictable behaviour is going to mess with other drivers causing them to make mistakes instead and crash into me. Perhaps it works well for US roads, but European old-town driving is way too complex for safety features to keep up (esp as Volvo is considered to be among the best manufacturers for safety features, including these new-fangled ones). Edit: and blind spot monitoring — the sales guy was so high on it, yet I don't see the purpose: it's right there flashing on your side mirrors so you have to look at them, yet side mirrors are large enough and concave (like on all modern cars) that if you set them up properly, there's really no blind spot a car or bike can fit in. And I still prefer to look over my shoulder to top it off.

fletchowns 5y ago
> All the other times, it's causing me frustration and pain. It signals a collision as I am avoiding potholes in a tight one-way street and cars parked on both sides of the road (yep, I am going to slam into that parked car for sure — at least it did not forcibly brake which would definitely cause cars behind me to slam into me). The only time I've gotten false positives on the collision avoidance was when I was going too fast for the situation. Now it's gotten me to drive slower on these narrow lane situations, which is a good thing! > It brakes when I am backing out of a parking spot into a street and vehicles appear from the other direction (a lane I was not getting into) — this happens so frequently that I am tempted to turn it off. I haven't experienced this personally, but a false positive here doesn't really have any downsides. Ideally every driver would be skilled enough to not back up so far and go into the other lane, but I do see drivers that back out further than necessary and get a corner of the car across the divide of the road. The cross traffic avoidance when backing up is one of my favorites, it's saved me plenty of times when somebody is going way too fast in a parking lot and I'm backing up slowly. > Pilot Assist on the highway seems to wait too long to slow down as I approach a car in front of me and then it abruptly slows down, yet it requires me to use the turn signal way too early if I want to overtake someone I caught up with: my drive was much more fluid with a simple stay-at-this-speed cruise control of my previous car. This situation sounds like you may be driving faster than the flow of traffic, or the follow distance is not set far enough. You can also do the simple stay-at-this-speed cruise control, or adaptive cruise control without the automatic steering capabilities. I am on the west coast of the US so the roads here are well planned and well marked, so maybe that helps. > Edit: and blind spot monitoring — the sales guy was so high on it, yet I don't see the purpose: it's right there flashing on your side mirrors so you have to look at them, yet side mirrors are large enough and concave (like on all modern cars) that if you set them up properly, there's really no blind spot a car or bike can fit in. And I still prefer to look over my shoulder to top it off. Depending on the car, the driver, and how seating position and mirrors are setup, there can still be blind spots despite your best efforts, or have a driver in the next lane in a dark car at night with their lights off accidentally. Nothing wrong with looking at your mirror and still checking over your shoulder, but the blind spot monitoring is still very helpful. That's why the indicator is on the mirror anyways, because they know we are already going to look there before changing lanes. From my experience the safety features are all supplemental to also having good driving habits, they don't replace the need for good habits entirely.

kelnos 5y ago

Yeah, I'm feeling the same. I have an older car (2004 Honda Accord), and I'm looking for a new one. I like the new safety features, but I want to avoid the privacy-invasive data collection garbage.

throw0101a 5y ago

> I wouldn't buy a new daily driver that doesn't have blind spot monitoring, collision avoidance, lane keep assist, etc. And here I am puttering along in my 2003 VW Golf with a manual transmission. :)

malshe 5y ago

In Texas all these are must have features given how terrible we drive!

aidenn0 5y ago

The blind spot monitoring on my car is useless. I call it "the thing that beeps every time I turn on my signal" Unfortunately the rear-cross-traffic is very useful and I can't turn off one without the other.