5 ms·

I find it disturbing that everytime someone points out the actual science of masks (ineffective for stopping viral transmission) they are immediately downvoted

I find it disturbing that everytime someone points out the actual science of masks (ineffective for stopping viral transmission) they are immediately downvoted or shouted down online.

AnthonBerg 5y ago
It's absolutely crucial to distinguish between the different understanding people have of the word masks – cloth masks, gaping-at-the-sides "surgical masks", N95/FFP2 masks, N100/FFP3 masks. Each random person's picture of masks will be very different from what the next person is thinking. And it's also very important to distinguish between the different meanings of viral transmission – of what virus, and according to what scientific results it's being talked about. A lot of the friction comes from this. In SARS-CoV-2 transmission specifically, I speak about it as airborne or aerosolized, based on all the papers that are out that confirm that now, and I when I say "masks" I tend to think of gaping surgical masks or better, and no, those don't work well enough. However in the sense of the word masks as N95/FFP2 masks or better—often called respirators—then those masks are almost unreasonably effective at stopping transmission. Here's the data I base my perspective on, in the nutshell form of some tweets from scientists, tweets linking to scientific papers. (Some are peer-reviewed, some at the preprint stage.) https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 — We've summarized the literature supporting airborne transmission of COVID-19 & several other respiratory pathogens. Guess what? #COVIDisAirborne https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 — Important new research examining the real world impact better PPE has on workplace acquired infections of SARS-CoV2. — TL:DR - FFP3 respirators provide 100% protection to healthcare workers looking after patients infected with SARS-CoV2. 1/25 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 — A thread on our recent pre-print “The removal of airborne SARS-CoV-2 and other microbial bioaerosols by air filtration on COVID-19 surge units” (*Pre-print -not peer reviewed*) — TL:DR Hospital air is dirty, we can clean it https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 — Remarkable new work from Korea shows the extraordinary impact of masks on SARS-2 transmission on public transit. — Parameterized based on *aerosol* simulator. (Because SARS-2 is airborne). Distancing helps, but less important (b/c SARS-2 = airborne). https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 — 2/ If this disease were only spread by droplets that fell to the ground within 2 metres, [plexiglass barriers] would be a perfectly fine solution to limit transmission. Unfortunately, we unequivocally know that aerosols are important with this disease.
- AnthonBerg 5y ago
  Downvotes to this? Lol. If you have any issues with my comment above which is based on clearly delineated and reasonable personal opinion and includes links to the scientific results it is based on, you have a duty to respond, not downvote.
- timr 5y ago
  The data for respirators was always better than the data for "masks" (and much better than the non-existent data for "face coverings", whatever those are), but...all of the existing studies of respirators took place in hospitals. People keep dismissing this, but respirators in hospitals are very different than respirators in the hands of the general public. Fit matters more than anything else, and hospitals have staff and procedures to ensure that PPE is used correctly. This isn't a small or theoretical concern. Even a tiny gap negates the effect of the respirator, and people don't fit their respirators properly -- in large part because properly worn respirators are annoying and hard to tolerate for long periods of time. I regularly see people walking around with KN95 masks on their faces, with massive gaps around the nose and chin. These masks are pure viral theater. (Also, not for nothing: two of the twitter links you cite are about respirators in hospitals. the other two are mechanistic studies, which are basically useless. Every failed intervention or drug in the history of medicine has a mountain of plausible mechanistic studies supporting it. Most things don't work, but everything we try has someone claiming that it's a sure-fire solution, based on a lab study.)
  - AnthonBerg 5y ago
    Sincere thanks for the reply! I will learn from it.
  - AnthonBerg 5y ago
    One recurring thought I’ve had about the requirement for N95/FFP2 respirators/masks to be closely fitted: Any gap in the seal will drastically reduce efficiency, but a respirator worn in a reasonable manner will always be more efficient than a square mask with enormous high-flow low-resistance gaps on both sides. In hospitals, high importance is rightfully placed on correctly fitting N95/FFP2 and up – this is so that they function to spec and can be formally assumed to work like the specification indicates so they can be applied as a tool in general use by, well, by a population of staff. This does not mean that respirators which are worn in a reasonable manner will ever be as poor filtration devices as gaping masks, especially not if the pathogen is airborne / aerosolized and operates almost purely as air flow, not droplets with mass and inertia to consider. And COVID-19 is airborne and must be considered as airborne. There were five links, and the fifth is a collection of papers :) There is also a significant amount of detail and discussion and framing and context in adjacent tweets i all the links.
FredPret 5y ago
Society has left religion behind but dogma is still with us
BoxOfRain 5y ago
The cynic in me says that they’re so popular with governments because mask mandates mean that people can wag their fingers and shame the people not wearing masks rather than the politicians who were caught with their trousers down. Masks put the onus on the individual rather than the state for public health, no wonder politicians are loathe to give them up despite patchy evidence for their effectiveness.
- chrischattin 5y ago
  It’s also CYA among politicians, and the comforting illusion that you’re doing something. Same part of human nature that leads people to wear lucky charms to ward off evil spirits.
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
They may mostly be security theatre, but most anti-mask people are exactly as coherent as that guy who gets petulant about removing his shoes at the airport. Still, I don't understand the strong pro-mask sentiment among the vaccinated. Things to add to my shopping list: a face mask proclaiming "hug me, I'm vaccinated".

I find it disturbing that everytime someone points out the actual science of masks (ineffective for stopping viral transmission) they are immediately downvoted or shouted down online.

AnthonBerg 5y ago

It's absolutely crucial to distinguish between the different understanding people have of the word masks – cloth masks, gaping-at-the-sides "surgical masks", N95/FFP2 masks, N100/FFP3 masks. Each random person's picture of masks will be very different from what the next person is thinking. And it's also very important to distinguish between the different meanings of viral transmission – of what virus, and according to what scientific results it's being talked about. A lot of the friction comes from this. In SARS-CoV-2 transmission specifically, I speak about it as airborne or aerosolized, based on all the papers that are out that confirm that now, and I when I say "masks" I tend to think of gaping surgical masks or better, and no, those don't work well enough. However in the sense of the word masks as N95/FFP2 masks or better—often called respirators—then those masks are almost unreasonably effective at stopping transmission. Here's the data I base my perspective on, in the nutshell form of some tweets from scientists, tweets linking to scientific papers. (Some are peer-reviewed, some at the preprint stage.) https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 — We've summarized the literature supporting airborne transmission of COVID-19 & several other respiratory pathogens. Guess what? #COVIDisAirborne https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 — Important new research examining the real world impact better PPE has on workplace acquired infections of SARS-CoV2. — TL:DR - FFP3 respirators provide 100% protection to healthcare workers looking after patients infected with SARS-CoV2. 1/25 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 — A thread on our recent pre-print “The removal of airborne SARS-CoV-2 and other microbial bioaerosols by air filtration on COVID-19 surge units” (*Pre-print -not peer reviewed*) — TL:DR Hospital air is dirty, we can clean it https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 — Remarkable new work from Korea shows the extraordinary impact of masks on SARS-2 transmission on public transit. — Parameterized based on *aerosol* simulator. (Because SARS-2 is airborne). Distancing helps, but less important (b/c SARS-2 = airborne). https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 — 2/ If this disease were only spread by droplets that fell to the ground within 2 metres, [plexiglass barriers] would be a perfectly fine solution to limit transmission. Unfortunately, we unequivocally know that aerosols are important with this disease.

AnthonBerg 5y ago
Downvotes to this? Lol. If you have any issues with my comment above which is based on clearly delineated and reasonable personal opinion and includes links to the scientific results it is based on, you have a duty to respond, not downvote.
timr 5y ago
The data for respirators was always better than the data for "masks" (and much better than the non-existent data for "face coverings", whatever those are), but...all of the existing studies of respirators took place in hospitals. People keep dismissing this, but respirators in hospitals are very different than respirators in the hands of the general public. Fit matters more than anything else, and hospitals have staff and procedures to ensure that PPE is used correctly. This isn't a small or theoretical concern. Even a tiny gap negates the effect of the respirator, and people don't fit their respirators properly -- in large part because properly worn respirators are annoying and hard to tolerate for long periods of time. I regularly see people walking around with KN95 masks on their faces, with massive gaps around the nose and chin. These masks are pure viral theater. (Also, not for nothing: two of the twitter links you cite are about respirators in hospitals. the other two are mechanistic studies, which are basically useless. Every failed intervention or drug in the history of medicine has a mountain of plausible mechanistic studies supporting it. Most things don't work, but everything we try has someone claiming that it's a sure-fire solution, based on a lab study.)
- AnthonBerg 5y ago
  Sincere thanks for the reply! I will learn from it.
- AnthonBerg 5y ago
  One recurring thought I’ve had about the requirement for N95/FFP2 respirators/masks to be closely fitted: Any gap in the seal will drastically reduce efficiency, but a respirator worn in a reasonable manner will always be more efficient than a square mask with enormous high-flow low-resistance gaps on both sides. In hospitals, high importance is rightfully placed on correctly fitting N95/FFP2 and up – this is so that they function to spec and can be formally assumed to work like the specification indicates so they can be applied as a tool in general use by, well, by a population of staff. This does not mean that respirators which are worn in a reasonable manner will ever be as poor filtration devices as gaping masks, especially not if the pathogen is airborne / aerosolized and operates almost purely as air flow, not droplets with mass and inertia to consider. And COVID-19 is airborne and must be considered as airborne. There were five links, and the fifth is a collection of papers :) There is also a significant amount of detail and discussion and framing and context in adjacent tweets i all the links.

FredPret 5y ago

Society has left religion behind but dogma is still with us

BoxOfRain 5y ago

The cynic in me says that they’re so popular with governments because mask mandates mean that people can wag their fingers and shame the people not wearing masks rather than the politicians who were caught with their trousers down. Masks put the onus on the individual rather than the state for public health, no wonder politicians are loathe to give them up despite patchy evidence for their effectiveness.

chrischattin 5y ago
It’s also CYA among politicians, and the comforting illusion that you’re doing something. Same part of human nature that leads people to wear lucky charms to ward off evil spirits.

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

They may mostly be security theatre, but most anti-mask people are exactly as coherent as that guy who gets petulant about removing his shoes at the airport. Still, I don't understand the strong pro-mask sentiment among the vaccinated. Things to add to my shopping list: a face mask proclaiming "hug me, I'm vaccinated".