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Austria makes Covid19 vaccination mandatory as of Feb 2022

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
I guess this post got autobanned because it points to a non English source. Sorry about that. Here is a repost that points to politico: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29275773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29275773
jmnicolas 5y ago
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) : Austria is the first country in Europe to introduce mandatory Corona vaccination for all. The announcement was made by Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg following the government's meeting with state governors at Achensee in Tyrol. The mandatory vaccination will come into force on February 1. Due to the sharp rise in the number of infections and the overload of hospitals, a lockdown will be imposed across the country for 20 days starting Monday. After that, recovered and vaccinated people will be exempt from the lockdown. Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg regretted that not enough people could be convinced of the usefulness of vaccination. He said the government had waited too long for people to voluntarily get vaccinated. In view of the many dead, sick and overburdened hospitals, there was now no other way out than compulsory vaccination. Unfortunately, many people had been deterred from vaccination by false news from radical opponents of vaccination. The Corona virus remains. The vaccination is until now the only means to be able to live halfway normal despite the virus. Austria is suffering from a massive fourth wave of infection, which could not be broken with the measures taken so far.
kavalg 5y ago
Are they also planning to implement a forced vaccination for the unwilling?
- laydn 5y ago
  You do realize, a lot of vaccines are already mandatory all around the world right?
  - blub 5y ago
    I thought that this is a very unusual step that Austria's taking, so I did some reading... Germany, Austria and Switzerland don't have any mandatory vaccines for the general population. Only in Germany is vaccination against measles mandatory for children and caregivers (daycare, etc). Austria in particular had no mandatory vaccination at all until they announced it now. France and Italy seem to have many mandatory vaccinations for children.
    - gehatare 5y ago
      Desperate times and all that. With a incident rate of >1000 (and a lot higher in some hotspots), hospitals are at their breaking point right now.
      - jmnicolas 5y ago
        Meh. If it's like in France there's a lot of dramatization: we got an official report about last year: COVID represented 2% of all hospitalizations and 5% of intensive care.
        soco 5y ago
        Right now in Switzerland there's 16.8% COVID patients from the hospitalizations. Would you call this dramatization?
        jmnicolas 5y ago
        There is probably a wave of hospitalizations now like every year with the flu. When you average on a year it won't be as bad and won't justify trampling civil liberties. It's just a power grab IMHO and people are so afraid of COVID they just go along. But sadly we won't get our freedoms back once all this is over.
- c0l0 5y ago
  No, but there will be fines ("Verwaltungsstrafen", which can be converted to "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafen" - jail time - if you are unable or unwilling to pay).
  - hyperstar 5y ago
    How much? So rich wackos get a practically free pass, or will the fines be adjusted to weath?
  - makomk 5y ago
    Given how ineffective vaccines or any other measure have been at stopping Covid-19 from spreading within prisons, jail time for this is effectively sentencing people to be infected with a deadly disease in the name of protecting them against it (but only if they're poor and can't afford the fines). I'd say that any loss of trust in the state and medical industry resulting from that would be 100% earned.
ffwacom 5y ago
Had a heart attack thinking this was Australia.
beberlei 5y ago
Austria has it especially hard since they earn a lot of money from outside tourism during the winter ski season, which is the prime season for higher covid numbers and hospitalization overload. Its a desperate measure as they seem to loose at least half of the winter season this year again.
- pretzelhands 5y ago
  And boy oh boy do they try their best to keep the winter revenue alive. Everybody in Europe probably remembers the joy of Ischgl.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - noja 5y ago
    They took five days to decide to close right?
- bko 5y ago
  Forcing their people to undergo a medical procedure to accommodate tourists and allow the private tourist industry to profit sounds even more dystopian. If they're worried about hospital capacity, they should build more hospitals or restrict tourism.
  - thefz 5y ago
    Here in Italy you receive forced vaccinations up until the age of 16. Some more are strongly encouraged after, see tethanus. I can't understand why everyone is okay with vaccinating against polio after seeing its devastating and life altering effects on an unvaccinated adult, still refuse to protect themselves against a disease that killed millions in two years.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      polio vaccines != covid vaccines * Covid risk is highly age dependent. 1000x so. An unvaccinated kid has less chance of death than their vaccinated 40yo parent. Covid mortality is concentrated in the >50yo population. Please take a look at the very nice charts Singapore ministry of health put together to get a sense of the age-dependent behavior. https://www.moh.gov.sg/covid-19/statistics https://www.moh.gov.sg/covid-19/statistics * Covid vaccines do not fully stop transmission. Even the highest vaccinated places on Earth still have regular outbreaks in the winter season. At least a couple papers from reputable sources indicate that the vaccine effect on transmission is "negligible" after a few months. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00690-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v2.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v... * Vaccine efficacy against infection wanes over time, the medical literature estimates VEaI at 50% after 6 months. Fortunately, VE against severe disease holds much better. High risk populations greatly benefit from vaccinations. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm0620 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm0620 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02183-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01548-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01548-7 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114114 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114114 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410 * Covid mutates: original, alpha, delta. Every time a new mutation took over, the vaccines have proven less effective. Where is the delta vaccine? * There is no bottom to how not effective a vaccine can be. UK epi data indicates negative VEaI for delta, and nobody has a definitive clue as to why, though many suspect statistical artifacts. Just to be clear, US and Germany epi data indicate the opposite, the only point here is that the possibility exists. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... To recap: polio: disease that mostly affects young people, crippling them for life, vaccines are highly effective in granting herd immunity and eradicating the disease. covid: disease that mostly affects old people, has almost no effect on children, vaccines cannot stop transmission, the disease is widespread and undergoing active mutations. If you are an adult, especially near or past retirement age, please strongly consider a covid vaccine for your protection. OTOH, it is not that clear that forced covid vaccinations for kids are a longterm net positive.
DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
sorry for the original source it was the first place reporting on it while the news were announced. here are 2 stories from 15 mins ago in English: https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-mandatory-coronavirus-vaccination-february/ https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-mandatory-coronaviru... https://www.ft.com/content/ea306f29-4857-4fa4-9c9d-f3d8aed5dd6d https://www.ft.com/content/ea306f29-4857-4fa4-9c9d-f3d8aed5d...
orbifold 5y ago
From the country that brought us Mozart, World War 1, Wittgenstein, Gödel, Hitler. So this is either a brilliant or horrible idea ^^
- sasaf5 5y ago
  + Yodeling ^^
  - DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
    I just returned from Switzerland where I took yodeling classes. These classes are in huge demand by tourists. We were asked to form an orderly orderly orderly queue.
8as746fd4a5df 5y ago
People either have a reduced risk of infecting themselves and others like the vaccines provide it or they do not. Reality does not care about believes and concerns. If one ignores reality for too long, it will biff one right on the nose.
- makomk 5y ago
  The current Covid-19 vaccines don't reduce people's risk of infecting themselves and others by nearly enough to control Covid outbreaks, and reality doesn't care about whatever sense of justice or political viewpoint is making people believe they do anyway. There's also diminishing returns for vaccinating the remaining part of the population, since their limited effectiveness means it doesn't take particularly high vaccination levels for vaccinated people to be the main ones who're catching, spreading, and getting hospitalized with the disease.
jahnu 5y ago
It's not certain yet. The government are preparing the measures to try to do it though. We are entering a 10-20 day lockdown countrywide from Monday though. Meanwhile in Vienna airport you still have small smoking rooms full of passengers beside the gates.
s9w 5y ago
Every country is off worse with the "vax" than without - yet it's being pushed. The greatest puzzle of this century.
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
IMHO this is much better than all these "vaccination ID card" that many other countries have been implementing (including mine), which basically A) effectively forces you to vaccinate anyway (unless you want to live like a monk) B) means I have to show what is effectively an ID card everywhere I go (and I really mean everywhere), and the poor employees have to waste time checking it
- sofixa 5y ago
  Regarding A, you can also get a test every few days and use that. Regarding B, it depends on the country, in France nobody besides locations that are age restricted ( bars, sex clubs, etc.) have the right to ask for your ID, and it was explicitly clarified that this doesn't change with the Covid pass.
  - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
    Regarding A, getting the test every few days is even more problematic, privacy wise and convenience-wise. Plus it's an expense. Not a much better alternative than living like a monk. Regarding B, yes it is France. The pass itself is asked for in ALL restaurants and a shitton of other establishments, e.g. (large) supermarkets and dept stores , libraries, public transportation, etc. <https://www.gouvernement.fr/info-coronavirus/pass-sanitaire#ou_le_%C2%AB_pass_sanitaire_%C2%BB_est-il_obligatoire_sur_le_territoire_national_? https://www.gouvernement.fr/info-coronavirus/pass-sanitaire#...>
moroz2137 5y ago
A point a lot of people seem to miss is that there is a huge difference between making a vaccination mandatory, taking full responsibility for any side effects, and forcing people to get vaccinated by depriving them of their basic rights if they don't, but not taking any responsibility for side effects.
- guynamedloren 5y ago
  Would you mind explaining the difference between how these two scenarios play out, in practice?
  - lucozade 5y ago
    In a country with a sensible healthcare system there will likely be no difference. In the US, say, there may well be. For example, if there are health consequences due to taking the vaccine, who pays?
- jahnu 5y ago
  We have free universal healthcare in Austria. And the state carries responsibility for problems as long as a vaccine has been officially approved. It was possible to get COVID vaccine before approval (off label it's called) but you assume responsibility. Also mandatory vaccines are not new either https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211029-why-mandatory-vaccination-is-nothing-new https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211029-why-mandatory-va...
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Well, people still have the ability to refuse at great costs to themselves and ultimately the state itself. I think the low level of protection and associated risks cannot establish enough room for a vaccination mandate. And that mandate is also again something different than a pass. I am vaccinated but I won't use a green pass. That shit won't ever go away again and we would see this every winter when the flu hits a bit harder.
  - blub 5y ago
pretzelhands 5y ago
As an Austrian I'd like to note: We've also previously had a vaccination mandate for smallpox. There's a precedent here, at least. Whether you're for or against a vaccination mandate I leave up to debate. But either we get everyone vaccinated or everyone needs to actually follow proper COVID rules. The second option hasn't worked out great so far, as you might be able to tell.
- tomp 5y ago
  This is simply an anti-science viewpoint that isn't supported by the facts at all. Previously infected are better protected than fully vaccinated. Unvaccinated kids are less at risk that fully vaccinated adults. Even vaccinated people can spread the virus.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
charbonneau2 5y ago
Sounds good. Currently analyzed index case–contact pairs exposed to Delta/B.1.617.2 show that, adjusting for age, ethnicity and index of multiple deprivation (IMD), the R0 increased modestly with genomic pre-alpha (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10 viral lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adjusting peak, sed do eiusmod tempotentially explaining its success in infection prevention and control policies internationally.
- _Microft 5y ago
  > Sounds good. Currently analyzed index case–contact pairs exposed to Delta/B.1.617.2 show that, adjusting for age, ethnicity and index of multiple deprivation (IMD), the R0 increased modestly with genomic pre-alpha (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10 viral lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adjusting peak, sed do eiusmod tempotentially explaining its success in infection prevention and control policies internationally. Inserting "Lorem ipsum" into what is made to look like an argument? That's definitely a new low here, even for discussions on Covid related measures.
  - thinkingemote 5y ago
    I believe it was a joke about scientific gibberish.
  - charbonneau2 5y ago
    I'd argue that Lorem ipsum is the most effective argument for discussions on COVID-19 related measures. Just have a look at your country [1]: > 1. Für welche der seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie umgesetzten Schutzmaßnahmen liegen wissenschaftliche Erkenntnisse über die Wirksamkeit vor, und welche Erkenntnisse sind dies? > 2. Für welche der seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie umgesetzten Schutzmaßnahmen liegen bisher keine wissenschaftlichen Erkenntnisse über die Wirksamkeit vor, und warum wurden diese Maßnahmen trotzdem ergriffen (bitte jeweils einzeln auflisten)? > 3. Was unternimmt die Bundesregierung, um die Wirksamkeit der einzelnen Schutzmaßnahmen zu evaluieren und zu untersuchen? > Die genaue Auswirkung einzelner Maßnahmen auf das Infektionsgeschehen ist immer abhängig von vielen Faktoren, wie z.B. der Bevölkerungsstruktur, dem politischem System, den sozialen, ökonomischen und auch kulturellen Aspekten, die miteinander sowie mit anderen Faktoren wie der Saisonalität und der möglichen Entwicklung des Erregers interagieren. Durch dieses kontextspezifische Zusammenspiel einer sehr großen Anzahl an Variablen ist es nicht möglich, die Auswirkung einer einzelnen Maßnahme auf einen Indikator (z. B. Inzidenz) belastbar und generalisierbar zu quantifizieren und zwischen Ländern zu vergleichen. Die multifaktoriellen Zusammenhänge sind auch eine mögliche Erklärung für die Variationen in der Effektivität einzelner Maßnahmen zwischen unterschiedlichen Regionen oder Ländern. Vergleichende Fallstudien betonen vielmehr die Effektivität von sich verstärkenden Maßnahmen. Die Evidenz zeigt klar, dass es immer die Umsetzung mehrere gleichzeitiger Maßnahmen ist, die den Pandemieverlauf beeinträchtigen, also die Summe der Schutzmaßnahmen, die einen Rückgang von Infektionen herbeiführen. - - - TLDR; Measures are needed, but we can't tell you which, but there's evidence, but we won't show you and have no real interest in finding it ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. [1] https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/317/1931798.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/317/1931798.pdf
66fm472tjy7 5y ago
I would have preferred giving lower priority in hospitals to voluntarily unvaccinated persons seeking COVID treatment. That would require no violation of personal freedoms and avoid the great economic cost of implementing a lockdown at the start of the touristic winter season at the cost of letting these people suffer the consequences of their belief that the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease.
- soco 5y ago
  A blanket measure (mandate something for all) is always easier to rationalize than a targeted measure (in this case, denying a person hospital admission). So while some politicians will agree with your spirit, they won't be thrilled to implement it.
- niklasbuschmann 5y ago
  Ethics aside, any law determining the priority of hospital admissions based on non-medical reasons is unconstitutional in Germany, according to legal experts. I doubt the situation differs much in Austria. But I agree, this might be the most freedom-preserving path.
  - summerlight 5y ago
    > any law determining the priority of hospital admissions based on non-medical reasons is unconstitutional in Germany Isn't vaccination status a medical reason? In fact, triage based on vaccination status is seriously discussed in many hospitals. It's because we don't have many effective treatments for COVID-19 patients other than simple symptomatic therapy (yet) and vaccinated covid-19 patients have a much higher chance to be recovered from ICU, and generally within a shorter period.
- sleavey 5y ago
  While we're at it, let's give lower priority to obese, smokers, alcoholics... or let's not. It's a slippery slope to start discriminating against people based on whether the admitting staff think they're worthy of treatment or not. We're better than that.
spants 5y ago
Gibraltar has 100% Covid Vaccination with 5th Highest Covid Mortality Rate in the World
- Maf1 5y ago
  Gibraltar surge in covid cases and is cancelling lots of events, but has 100% vaccination rate. No stopping restrictions and cases even with 100% vaccination rate.
  - elmotri 5y ago
    Where do you get the information from that they are cancelling lots of events? As far as I can tell they are only giving out guidelines how you should behave if you want to have a party but no rules that prevent any event[0]. Also they only cancelled official events meaning events organized by the government: "Given the exponential rise in the number of cases, the Government, for example, intends to cancel a number of its own functions including official Christmas parties, official receptions and similar gatherings." from [1] [0] https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/public-health-guidance-for-festive-period-2021-8602021-7450 https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/public-health-gu... [1] https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/rise-in-active-covid-19-cases-public-urged-to-be-cautious-and-reduce-mixing-8452021-7433 https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/rise-in-active-c...
- tzs 5y ago
  They have had very little mortality since vaccination [1]. https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/gibraltar/ https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-m...
- alpanka 5y ago
  98 deaths for a place full of old tourists and retired British couples sounds pretty good to me. That's is 98 deaths since the beginning of the pandemic.
- calltrak 5y ago
  https://vaccinedeaths.com https://vaccinedeaths.com
ifyoubuildit 5y ago
With all of the previous reporting on Austria's "lockdown of the unvaccinated", it was usually quietly left out that it was a lockdown of the unvaccinated AND never infected. (https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/tests https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-in...). Does anyone know if that's the case here as well? This is still scary, but what's more scary to me is other western countries who willfully ignore immunity from recovery taking this as inspiration.
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
Boy this slope is getting slippery. Did you hear about new black trump virus? It's only killing black people, and named to mock Donald. It might have come from a lab but we won't be allowed to discuss that. We immediately need a complete lockdown of all black people. Let's start with 2 weeks... also we have a 'vaccine' which comes with lots of asterisks. We had only 1 case, but this 'vaccine' might sterilize all black men. Dont worry, we have done mandatory vaccinations before. It's safe, it's not like tuskegee again. No need for ethics evaluations.
calltrak 5y ago
Great news agregation site https://vaccinedeaths.com https://vaccinedeaths.com
guilhas 5y ago
Austrians can now apply as refugees for other countries?

I guess this post got autobanned because it points to a non English source. Sorry about that. Here is a repost that points to politico: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29275773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29275773

jmnicolas 5y ago

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) : Austria is the first country in Europe to introduce mandatory Corona vaccination for all. The announcement was made by Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg following the government's meeting with state governors at Achensee in Tyrol. The mandatory vaccination will come into force on February 1. Due to the sharp rise in the number of infections and the overload of hospitals, a lockdown will be imposed across the country for 20 days starting Monday. After that, recovered and vaccinated people will be exempt from the lockdown. Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg regretted that not enough people could be convinced of the usefulness of vaccination. He said the government had waited too long for people to voluntarily get vaccinated. In view of the many dead, sick and overburdened hospitals, there was now no other way out than compulsory vaccination. Unfortunately, many people had been deterred from vaccination by false news from radical opponents of vaccination. The Corona virus remains. The vaccination is until now the only means to be able to live halfway normal despite the virus. Austria is suffering from a massive fourth wave of infection, which could not be broken with the measures taken so far.

kavalg 5y ago

Are they also planning to implement a forced vaccination for the unwilling?

laydn 5y ago
You do realize, a lot of vaccines are already mandatory all around the world right?
- blub 5y ago
  I thought that this is a very unusual step that Austria's taking, so I did some reading... Germany, Austria and Switzerland don't have any mandatory vaccines for the general population. Only in Germany is vaccination against measles mandatory for children and caregivers (daycare, etc). Austria in particular had no mandatory vaccination at all until they announced it now. France and Italy seem to have many mandatory vaccinations for children.
  - gehatare 5y ago
    Desperate times and all that. With a incident rate of >1000 (and a lot higher in some hotspots), hospitals are at their breaking point right now.
    - jmnicolas 5y ago
      Meh. If it's like in France there's a lot of dramatization: we got an official report about last year: COVID represented 2% of all hospitalizations and 5% of intensive care.
      - soco 5y ago
        Right now in Switzerland there's 16.8% COVID patients from the hospitalizations. Would you call this dramatization?
        jmnicolas 5y ago
        There is probably a wave of hospitalizations now like every year with the flu. When you average on a year it won't be as bad and won't justify trampling civil liberties. It's just a power grab IMHO and people are so afraid of COVID they just go along. But sadly we won't get our freedoms back once all this is over.
c0l0 5y ago
No, but there will be fines ("Verwaltungsstrafen", which can be converted to "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafen" - jail time - if you are unable or unwilling to pay).
- hyperstar 5y ago
  How much? So rich wackos get a practically free pass, or will the fines be adjusted to weath?
- makomk 5y ago
  Given how ineffective vaccines or any other measure have been at stopping Covid-19 from spreading within prisons, jail time for this is effectively sentencing people to be infected with a deadly disease in the name of protecting them against it (but only if they're poor and can't afford the fines). I'd say that any loss of trust in the state and medical industry resulting from that would be 100% earned.

ffwacom 5y ago

Had a heart attack thinking this was Australia.

beberlei 5y ago

Austria has it especially hard since they earn a lot of money from outside tourism during the winter ski season, which is the prime season for higher covid numbers and hospitalization overload. Its a desperate measure as they seem to loose at least half of the winter season this year again.

pretzelhands 5y ago
And boy oh boy do they try their best to keep the winter revenue alive. Everybody in Europe probably remembers the joy of Ischgl.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- noja 5y ago
  They took five days to decide to close right?
bko 5y ago
Forcing their people to undergo a medical procedure to accommodate tourists and allow the private tourist industry to profit sounds even more dystopian. If they're worried about hospital capacity, they should build more hospitals or restrict tourism.
- thefz 5y ago
  Here in Italy you receive forced vaccinations up until the age of 16. Some more are strongly encouraged after, see tethanus. I can't understand why everyone is okay with vaccinating against polio after seeing its devastating and life altering effects on an unvaccinated adult, still refuse to protect themselves against a disease that killed millions in two years.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    polio vaccines != covid vaccines * Covid risk is highly age dependent. 1000x so. An unvaccinated kid has less chance of death than their vaccinated 40yo parent. Covid mortality is concentrated in the >50yo population. Please take a look at the very nice charts Singapore ministry of health put together to get a sense of the age-dependent behavior. https://www.moh.gov.sg/covid-19/statistics https://www.moh.gov.sg/covid-19/statistics * Covid vaccines do not fully stop transmission. Even the highest vaccinated places on Earth still have regular outbreaks in the winter season. At least a couple papers from reputable sources indicate that the vaccine effect on transmission is "negligible" after a few months. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00690-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v2.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v... * Vaccine efficacy against infection wanes over time, the medical literature estimates VEaI at 50% after 6 months. Fortunately, VE against severe disease holds much better. High risk populations greatly benefit from vaccinations. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm0620 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm0620 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02183-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01548-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01548-7 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114114 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114114 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410 * Covid mutates: original, alpha, delta. Every time a new mutation took over, the vaccines have proven less effective. Where is the delta vaccine? * There is no bottom to how not effective a vaccine can be. UK epi data indicates negative VEaI for delta, and nobody has a definitive clue as to why, though many suspect statistical artifacts. Just to be clear, US and Germany epi data indicate the opposite, the only point here is that the possibility exists. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... To recap: polio: disease that mostly affects young people, crippling them for life, vaccines are highly effective in granting herd immunity and eradicating the disease. covid: disease that mostly affects old people, has almost no effect on children, vaccines cannot stop transmission, the disease is widespread and undergoing active mutations. If you are an adult, especially near or past retirement age, please strongly consider a covid vaccine for your protection. OTOH, it is not that clear that forced covid vaccinations for kids are a longterm net positive.

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago

sorry for the original source it was the first place reporting on it while the news were announced. here are 2 stories from 15 mins ago in English: https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-mandatory-coronavirus-vaccination-february/ https://www.politico.eu/article/austria-mandatory-coronaviru... https://www.ft.com/content/ea306f29-4857-4fa4-9c9d-f3d8aed5dd6d https://www.ft.com/content/ea306f29-4857-4fa4-9c9d-f3d8aed5d...

orbifold 5y ago

From the country that brought us Mozart, World War 1, Wittgenstein, Gödel, Hitler. So this is either a brilliant or horrible idea ^^

sasaf5 5y ago
+ Yodeling ^^
- DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
  I just returned from Switzerland where I took yodeling classes. These classes are in huge demand by tourists. We were asked to form an orderly orderly orderly queue.

8as746fd4a5df 5y ago

People either have a reduced risk of infecting themselves and others like the vaccines provide it or they do not. Reality does not care about believes and concerns. If one ignores reality for too long, it will biff one right on the nose.

makomk 5y ago
The current Covid-19 vaccines don't reduce people's risk of infecting themselves and others by nearly enough to control Covid outbreaks, and reality doesn't care about whatever sense of justice or political viewpoint is making people believe they do anyway. There's also diminishing returns for vaccinating the remaining part of the population, since their limited effectiveness means it doesn't take particularly high vaccination levels for vaccinated people to be the main ones who're catching, spreading, and getting hospitalized with the disease.

jahnu 5y ago

It's not certain yet. The government are preparing the measures to try to do it though. We are entering a 10-20 day lockdown countrywide from Monday though. Meanwhile in Vienna airport you still have small smoking rooms full of passengers beside the gates.

s9w 5y ago

Every country is off worse with the "vax" than without - yet it's being pushed. The greatest puzzle of this century.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago

IMHO this is much better than all these "vaccination ID card" that many other countries have been implementing (including mine), which basically A) effectively forces you to vaccinate anyway (unless you want to live like a monk) B) means I have to show what is effectively an ID card everywhere I go (and I really mean everywhere), and the poor employees have to waste time checking it

sofixa 5y ago
Regarding A, you can also get a test every few days and use that. Regarding B, it depends on the country, in France nobody besides locations that are age restricted ( bars, sex clubs, etc.) have the right to ask for your ID, and it was explicitly clarified that this doesn't change with the Covid pass.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  Regarding A, getting the test every few days is even more problematic, privacy wise and convenience-wise. Plus it's an expense. Not a much better alternative than living like a monk. Regarding B, yes it is France. The pass itself is asked for in ALL restaurants and a shitton of other establishments, e.g. (large) supermarkets and dept stores , libraries, public transportation, etc. <https://www.gouvernement.fr/info-coronavirus/pass-sanitaire#ou_le_%C2%AB_pass_sanitaire_%C2%BB_est-il_obligatoire_sur_le_territoire_national_? https://www.gouvernement.fr/info-coronavirus/pass-sanitaire#...>

moroz2137 5y ago

A point a lot of people seem to miss is that there is a huge difference between making a vaccination mandatory, taking full responsibility for any side effects, and forcing people to get vaccinated by depriving them of their basic rights if they don't, but not taking any responsibility for side effects.

guynamedloren 5y ago
Would you mind explaining the difference between how these two scenarios play out, in practice?
- lucozade 5y ago
  In a country with a sensible healthcare system there will likely be no difference. In the US, say, there may well be. For example, if there are health consequences due to taking the vaccine, who pays?
jahnu 5y ago
We have free universal healthcare in Austria. And the state carries responsibility for problems as long as a vaccine has been officially approved. It was possible to get COVID vaccine before approval (off label it's called) but you assume responsibility. Also mandatory vaccines are not new either https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211029-why-mandatory-vaccination-is-nothing-new https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211029-why-mandatory-va...
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Well, people still have the ability to refuse at great costs to themselves and ultimately the state itself. I think the low level of protection and associated risks cannot establish enough room for a vaccination mandate. And that mandate is also again something different than a pass. I am vaccinated but I won't use a green pass. That shit won't ever go away again and we would see this every winter when the flu hits a bit harder.
- blub 5y ago

pretzelhands 5y ago

As an Austrian I'd like to note: We've also previously had a vaccination mandate for smallpox. There's a precedent here, at least. Whether you're for or against a vaccination mandate I leave up to debate. But either we get everyone vaccinated or everyone needs to actually follow proper COVID rules. The second option hasn't worked out great so far, as you might be able to tell.

tomp 5y ago
This is simply an anti-science viewpoint that isn't supported by the facts at all. Previously infected are better protected than fully vaccinated. Unvaccinated kids are less at risk that fully vaccinated adults. Even vaccinated people can spread the virus.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

charbonneau2 5y ago

Sounds good. Currently analyzed index case–contact pairs exposed to Delta/B.1.617.2 show that, adjusting for age, ethnicity and index of multiple deprivation (IMD), the R0 increased modestly with genomic pre-alpha (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10 viral lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adjusting peak, sed do eiusmod tempotentially explaining its success in infection prevention and control policies internationally.

_Microft 5y ago
> Sounds good. Currently analyzed index case–contact pairs exposed to Delta/B.1.617.2 show that, adjusting for age, ethnicity and index of multiple deprivation (IMD), the R0 increased modestly with genomic pre-alpha (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10 viral lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adjusting peak, sed do eiusmod tempotentially explaining its success in infection prevention and control policies internationally. Inserting "Lorem ipsum" into what is made to look like an argument? That's definitely a new low here, even for discussions on Covid related measures.
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  I believe it was a joke about scientific gibberish.
- charbonneau2 5y ago
  I'd argue that Lorem ipsum is the most effective argument for discussions on COVID-19 related measures. Just have a look at your country [1]: > 1. Für welche der seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie umgesetzten Schutzmaßnahmen liegen wissenschaftliche Erkenntnisse über die Wirksamkeit vor, und welche Erkenntnisse sind dies? > 2. Für welche der seit Beginn der Corona-Pandemie umgesetzten Schutzmaßnahmen liegen bisher keine wissenschaftlichen Erkenntnisse über die Wirksamkeit vor, und warum wurden diese Maßnahmen trotzdem ergriffen (bitte jeweils einzeln auflisten)? > 3. Was unternimmt die Bundesregierung, um die Wirksamkeit der einzelnen Schutzmaßnahmen zu evaluieren und zu untersuchen? > Die genaue Auswirkung einzelner Maßnahmen auf das Infektionsgeschehen ist immer abhängig von vielen Faktoren, wie z.B. der Bevölkerungsstruktur, dem politischem System, den sozialen, ökonomischen und auch kulturellen Aspekten, die miteinander sowie mit anderen Faktoren wie der Saisonalität und der möglichen Entwicklung des Erregers interagieren. Durch dieses kontextspezifische Zusammenspiel einer sehr großen Anzahl an Variablen ist es nicht möglich, die Auswirkung einer einzelnen Maßnahme auf einen Indikator (z. B. Inzidenz) belastbar und generalisierbar zu quantifizieren und zwischen Ländern zu vergleichen. Die multifaktoriellen Zusammenhänge sind auch eine mögliche Erklärung für die Variationen in der Effektivität einzelner Maßnahmen zwischen unterschiedlichen Regionen oder Ländern. Vergleichende Fallstudien betonen vielmehr die Effektivität von sich verstärkenden Maßnahmen. Die Evidenz zeigt klar, dass es immer die Umsetzung mehrere gleichzeitiger Maßnahmen ist, die den Pandemieverlauf beeinträchtigen, also die Summe der Schutzmaßnahmen, die einen Rückgang von Infektionen herbeiführen. - - - TLDR; Measures are needed, but we can't tell you which, but there's evidence, but we won't show you and have no real interest in finding it ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. [1] https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/317/1931798.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/317/1931798.pdf

66fm472tjy7 5y ago

I would have preferred giving lower priority in hospitals to voluntarily unvaccinated persons seeking COVID treatment. That would require no violation of personal freedoms and avoid the great economic cost of implementing a lockdown at the start of the touristic winter season at the cost of letting these people suffer the consequences of their belief that the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease.

soco 5y ago
A blanket measure (mandate something for all) is always easier to rationalize than a targeted measure (in this case, denying a person hospital admission). So while some politicians will agree with your spirit, they won't be thrilled to implement it.
niklasbuschmann 5y ago
Ethics aside, any law determining the priority of hospital admissions based on non-medical reasons is unconstitutional in Germany, according to legal experts. I doubt the situation differs much in Austria. But I agree, this might be the most freedom-preserving path.
- summerlight 5y ago
  > any law determining the priority of hospital admissions based on non-medical reasons is unconstitutional in Germany Isn't vaccination status a medical reason? In fact, triage based on vaccination status is seriously discussed in many hospitals. It's because we don't have many effective treatments for COVID-19 patients other than simple symptomatic therapy (yet) and vaccinated covid-19 patients have a much higher chance to be recovered from ICU, and generally within a shorter period.
sleavey 5y ago
While we're at it, let's give lower priority to obese, smokers, alcoholics... or let's not. It's a slippery slope to start discriminating against people based on whether the admitting staff think they're worthy of treatment or not. We're better than that.

spants 5y ago

Gibraltar has 100% Covid Vaccination with 5th Highest Covid Mortality Rate in the World

Maf1 5y ago
Gibraltar surge in covid cases and is cancelling lots of events, but has 100% vaccination rate. No stopping restrictions and cases even with 100% vaccination rate.
- elmotri 5y ago
  Where do you get the information from that they are cancelling lots of events? As far as I can tell they are only giving out guidelines how you should behave if you want to have a party but no rules that prevent any event[0]. Also they only cancelled official events meaning events organized by the government: "Given the exponential rise in the number of cases, the Government, for example, intends to cancel a number of its own functions including official Christmas parties, official receptions and similar gatherings." from [1] [0] https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/public-health-guidance-for-festive-period-2021-8602021-7450 https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/public-health-gu... [1] https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/rise-in-active-covid-19-cases-public-urged-to-be-cautious-and-reduce-mixing-8452021-7433 https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/rise-in-active-c...
tzs 5y ago
They have had very little mortality since vaccination [1]. https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/gibraltar/ https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-m...
alpanka 5y ago
98 deaths for a place full of old tourists and retired British couples sounds pretty good to me. That's is 98 deaths since the beginning of the pandemic.
calltrak 5y ago
https://vaccinedeaths.com https://vaccinedeaths.com

ifyoubuildit 5y ago

With all of the previous reporting on Austria's "lockdown of the unvaccinated", it was usually quietly left out that it was a lockdown of the unvaccinated AND never infected. (https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/tests https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-in...). Does anyone know if that's the case here as well? This is still scary, but what's more scary to me is other western countries who willfully ignore immunity from recovery taking this as inspiration.

sleepysysadmin 5y ago

Boy this slope is getting slippery. Did you hear about new black trump virus? It's only killing black people, and named to mock Donald. It might have come from a lab but we won't be allowed to discuss that. We immediately need a complete lockdown of all black people. Let's start with 2 weeks... also we have a 'vaccine' which comes with lots of asterisks. We had only 1 case, but this 'vaccine' might sterilize all black men. Dont worry, we have done mandatory vaccinations before. It's safe, it's not like tuskegee again. No need for ethics evaluations.

calltrak 5y ago

Great news agregation site https://vaccinedeaths.com https://vaccinedeaths.com

guilhas 5y ago

Austrians can now apply as refugees for other countries?