5 ms·

...and then someone actually did a cluster RCT for masks and Covid, and found that cloth masks don't have any effect, and surgical masks have a truly minor effe

by timr 5y ago

...and then someone actually did a cluster RCT for masks and Covid, and found that cloth masks don't have any effect, and surgical masks have a truly minor effect on transmission: https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/do-masks-reduce-risk-of-covid19-by https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/do-masks-reduce-risk... We really need to stop repeating the talking point that "everyone screwed up". The original evidence base was that masks don't do much to stop respiratory illness. "The science" changed in the span of a week in early 2020, based on little more than propaganda. No actual science was ever performed, and once we did some, we found out that the early evidence was pretty much correct.

skinnymuch 5y ago
[flagged]
- christophilus 5y ago
  Not gonna defend him, but I was once an atheist and am now Catholic. People do change, and it’s always weird when people pull the “no true Scotsman” card on you. I have plenty of liberal friends who were once conservative.
  - jquery 5y ago
    I don’t think it’s “no true scotsman” when someone is saying they aren’t scot and that they’ve never been within 1000 miles of Scotland.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    The sibling comment echoed what I was trying to say. It’s not a no true Scotsman. It’s what the sibling comment said. That’s what I have a problem with. It’s a more and more common occurrence among obviously conservative/right wing people continuously saying they were recently liberal/progressive or are still centrist. At no point in any blog post did I see the blogger refer to themselves as conservative. Only cheering conservatives on a lot and blaming the left for a bunch of stuff (the only group the blogger said he has identified or belonged to)
    - timr 5y ago
      He's not a conservative. You're engaged in tribalism: defining people as members of the other team because they disagree with you on one issue. I am on the left, and agree with Prasad that the institutional left has done generational damage with its response to Covid, abandoned reason and equity and respect for science. If the "right" happens to agree with me, then that's fine.
- zpeti 5y ago
  I'm not sure what makes you right wing about being worried about school closures. We have studies showing worsening eyesight for children because of lockdowns: https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/covid19-pandemic-myopia-children-eyes https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/covid19-pande... (that might have an effect for 100 years?) A 7 year old child is extremely malleable, and especially socially needs an incredible amount of input to develop as a person. What you do today to a 7 year old for (currently) 2 years has a massive effect later. Not to mention, how do you think a 7 year olds parents are affected by lockdowns who they are locked up with? Alcoholism? Up. Drug abuse? Up. Domestic abuse? Up. So again, where is the guy wrong?
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    Think of the children is literally one of the major propaganda tactics the far right has used recently. You can look up save the children sort of stuff. No one doesn’t want to help children. It’s bizarre that Q anon sort of people are able to spin things as if they care about children more than others. Every one cares about children. > I’m not sure what makes you right wing The person consistently bashes the left and praises conservatives. I said that too. Not just school closures in isolation. What would you call someone who does that? Also I brought up the only association they do quickly make is saying they used to be progressive. Another common tactic taken by people who either never were and definitely aren’t now left of center at all. However they will keep leaning right without ever saying they lean right. A number of political internet personalities in the intellectual dark web continue to do this ploy to varying degrees. Two less egregious examples are Stephen Pinker and Joe Rogan. Two more obviously slanted examples are the Pool and Rubin guy. — > Alcoholism? Up. Drug abuse? Up. Domestic abuse? Up. I stated this in another comment. The status quo has never been good for children who were lower socioeconomically. All metrics: school funding, the amount learned, correlation between exam scores and going to university, all are unfair with our status quo. Why is there suddenly this behavior of caring for all children as if mostly the right and maybe some centrists who want schools open are the ones who care about children. The blogger specially said the left is bad because they kept schools closed. As if the left doesn’t care about children as much. All the issues you mentioned effect lower socioeconomic families more than any any other group of people. Where is the care for them when the war on drugs screwed stuff up for so long? It’s hard to believe these things are truly cared about when they have never been a focus for the vast majority of the country, both left and right, until the pandemic became insanely politicize and the right didn’t like the lockdowns.
- bluecatswim 5y ago
  >He casually says stuff like school closures will haunt society for 100 years Well maybe you can accuse him of exaggerating but it's true to an extent. In my (third world) country students have effectively missed two years of schooling, I know some primary students who don't know how to read/write very well.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    He was referring to the US. the problem is in a number of cases, the most effected groups like minority people[0] with less money, they didn’t want to risk having their child go to school. Those are the groups most effected negatively by distance learning. In that case, what is the blogger fighting for then? If in person schooling started earlier. These kids would be screwed over 10x more staying home while their better off peers go to in person school if school was open in 2020. Which is what he wanted and blamed progressives for messing up. Since pandemic I have lived in two places: one affluent and the other solidly middle class. Anecdotally, it didn’t seem like any of the children were close to harmed in a generational way. Society already screws over less affluent and colored students their entire lives. It’s interesting that only now the blogger and conservatives care about the well being of these kids’ educations. When otherwise the status quo does not benefit them. 0 the references I’ve seen that I remember are Hispanic and black parents not wanting their kids to go back to in person school.
chrischattin 5y ago
I find it disturbing that everytime someone points out the actual science of masks (ineffective for stopping viral transmission) they are immediately downvoted or shouted down online.
- AnthonBerg 5y ago
  It's absolutely crucial to distinguish between the different understanding people have of the word masks – cloth masks, gaping-at-the-sides "surgical masks", N95/FFP2 masks, N100/FFP3 masks. Each random person's picture of masks will be very different from what the next person is thinking. And it's also very important to distinguish between the different meanings of viral transmission – of what virus, and according to what scientific results it's being talked about. A lot of the friction comes from this. In SARS-CoV-2 transmission specifically, I speak about it as airborne or aerosolized, based on all the papers that are out that confirm that now, and I when I say "masks" I tend to think of gaping surgical masks or better, and no, those don't work well enough. However in the sense of the word masks as N95/FFP2 masks or better—often called respirators—then those masks are almost unreasonably effective at stopping transmission. Here's the data I base my perspective on, in the nutshell form of some tweets from scientists, tweets linking to scientific papers. (Some are peer-reviewed, some at the preprint stage.) https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 — We've summarized the literature supporting airborne transmission of COVID-19 & several other respiratory pathogens. Guess what? #COVIDisAirborne https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 — Important new research examining the real world impact better PPE has on workplace acquired infections of SARS-CoV2. — TL:DR - FFP3 respirators provide 100% protection to healthcare workers looking after patients infected with SARS-CoV2. 1/25 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 — A thread on our recent pre-print “The removal of airborne SARS-CoV-2 and other microbial bioaerosols by air filtration on COVID-19 surge units” (*Pre-print -not peer reviewed*) — TL:DR Hospital air is dirty, we can clean it https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 — Remarkable new work from Korea shows the extraordinary impact of masks on SARS-2 transmission on public transit. — Parameterized based on *aerosol* simulator. (Because SARS-2 is airborne). Distancing helps, but less important (b/c SARS-2 = airborne). https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 — 2/ If this disease were only spread by droplets that fell to the ground within 2 metres, [plexiglass barriers] would be a perfectly fine solution to limit transmission. Unfortunately, we unequivocally know that aerosols are important with this disease.

by timr 5y ago

skinnymuch 5y ago

[flagged]

christophilus 5y ago
Not gonna defend him, but I was once an atheist and am now Catholic. People do change, and it’s always weird when people pull the “no true Scotsman” card on you. I have plenty of liberal friends who were once conservative.
- jquery 5y ago
  I don’t think it’s “no true scotsman” when someone is saying they aren’t scot and that they’ve never been within 1000 miles of Scotland.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  The sibling comment echoed what I was trying to say. It’s not a no true Scotsman. It’s what the sibling comment said. That’s what I have a problem with. It’s a more and more common occurrence among obviously conservative/right wing people continuously saying they were recently liberal/progressive or are still centrist. At no point in any blog post did I see the blogger refer to themselves as conservative. Only cheering conservatives on a lot and blaming the left for a bunch of stuff (the only group the blogger said he has identified or belonged to)
  - timr 5y ago
    He's not a conservative. You're engaged in tribalism: defining people as members of the other team because they disagree with you on one issue. I am on the left, and agree with Prasad that the institutional left has done generational damage with its response to Covid, abandoned reason and equity and respect for science. If the "right" happens to agree with me, then that's fine.
zpeti 5y ago
I'm not sure what makes you right wing about being worried about school closures. We have studies showing worsening eyesight for children because of lockdowns: https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/covid19-pandemic-myopia-children-eyes https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/covid19-pande... (that might have an effect for 100 years?) A 7 year old child is extremely malleable, and especially socially needs an incredible amount of input to develop as a person. What you do today to a 7 year old for (currently) 2 years has a massive effect later. Not to mention, how do you think a 7 year olds parents are affected by lockdowns who they are locked up with? Alcoholism? Up. Drug abuse? Up. Domestic abuse? Up. So again, where is the guy wrong?
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  Think of the children is literally one of the major propaganda tactics the far right has used recently. You can look up save the children sort of stuff. No one doesn’t want to help children. It’s bizarre that Q anon sort of people are able to spin things as if they care about children more than others. Every one cares about children. > I’m not sure what makes you right wing The person consistently bashes the left and praises conservatives. I said that too. Not just school closures in isolation. What would you call someone who does that? Also I brought up the only association they do quickly make is saying they used to be progressive. Another common tactic taken by people who either never were and definitely aren’t now left of center at all. However they will keep leaning right without ever saying they lean right. A number of political internet personalities in the intellectual dark web continue to do this ploy to varying degrees. Two less egregious examples are Stephen Pinker and Joe Rogan. Two more obviously slanted examples are the Pool and Rubin guy. — > Alcoholism? Up. Drug abuse? Up. Domestic abuse? Up. I stated this in another comment. The status quo has never been good for children who were lower socioeconomically. All metrics: school funding, the amount learned, correlation between exam scores and going to university, all are unfair with our status quo. Why is there suddenly this behavior of caring for all children as if mostly the right and maybe some centrists who want schools open are the ones who care about children. The blogger specially said the left is bad because they kept schools closed. As if the left doesn’t care about children as much. All the issues you mentioned effect lower socioeconomic families more than any any other group of people. Where is the care for them when the war on drugs screwed stuff up for so long? It’s hard to believe these things are truly cared about when they have never been a focus for the vast majority of the country, both left and right, until the pandemic became insanely politicize and the right didn’t like the lockdowns.
bluecatswim 5y ago
>He casually says stuff like school closures will haunt society for 100 years Well maybe you can accuse him of exaggerating but it's true to an extent. In my (third world) country students have effectively missed two years of schooling, I know some primary students who don't know how to read/write very well.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  He was referring to the US. the problem is in a number of cases, the most effected groups like minority people[0] with less money, they didn’t want to risk having their child go to school. Those are the groups most effected negatively by distance learning. In that case, what is the blogger fighting for then? If in person schooling started earlier. These kids would be screwed over 10x more staying home while their better off peers go to in person school if school was open in 2020. Which is what he wanted and blamed progressives for messing up. Since pandemic I have lived in two places: one affluent and the other solidly middle class. Anecdotally, it didn’t seem like any of the children were close to harmed in a generational way. Society already screws over less affluent and colored students their entire lives. It’s interesting that only now the blogger and conservatives care about the well being of these kids’ educations. When otherwise the status quo does not benefit them. 0 the references I’ve seen that I remember are Hispanic and black parents not wanting their kids to go back to in person school.

chrischattin 5y ago

I find it disturbing that everytime someone points out the actual science of masks (ineffective for stopping viral transmission) they are immediately downvoted or shouted down online.

AnthonBerg 5y ago
It's absolutely crucial to distinguish between the different understanding people have of the word masks – cloth masks, gaping-at-the-sides "surgical masks", N95/FFP2 masks, N100/FFP3 masks. Each random person's picture of masks will be very different from what the next person is thinking. And it's also very important to distinguish between the different meanings of viral transmission – of what virus, and according to what scientific results it's being talked about. A lot of the friction comes from this. In SARS-CoV-2 transmission specifically, I speak about it as airborne or aerosolized, based on all the papers that are out that confirm that now, and I when I say "masks" I tend to think of gaping surgical masks or better, and no, those don't work well enough. However in the sense of the word masks as N95/FFP2 masks or better—often called respirators—then those masks are almost unreasonably effective at stopping transmission. Here's the data I base my perspective on, in the nutshell form of some tweets from scientists, tweets linking to scientific papers. (Some are peer-reviewed, some at the preprint stage.) https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 https://twitter.com/JenniferKShea/status/1449748053548752903 — We've summarized the literature supporting airborne transmission of COVID-19 & several other respiratory pathogens. Guess what? #COVIDisAirborne https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 https://twitter.com/mjb302/status/1409628852867850240 — Important new research examining the real world impact better PPE has on workplace acquired infections of SARS-CoV2. — TL:DR - FFP3 respirators provide 100% protection to healthcare workers looking after patients infected with SARS-CoV2. 1/25 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 https://twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1441355141051936772 — A thread on our recent pre-print “The removal of airborne SARS-CoV-2 and other microbial bioaerosols by air filtration on COVID-19 surge units” (*Pre-print -not peer reviewed*) — TL:DR Hospital air is dirty, we can clean it https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1454776521818886145 — Remarkable new work from Korea shows the extraordinary impact of masks on SARS-2 transmission on public transit. — Parameterized based on *aerosol* simulator. (Because SARS-2 is airborne). Distancing helps, but less important (b/c SARS-2 = airborne). https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 https://twitter.com/caruzycki/status/1360635674324463616 — 2/ If this disease were only spread by droplets that fell to the ground within 2 metres, [plexiglass barriers] would be a perfectly fine solution to limit transmission. Unfortunately, we unequivocally know that aerosols are important with this disease.