6 ms·

> What if that person was unimpressed by Bitcoin 5 years ago, could you explain what changed in the last 5 years (again, not mentioning change in price) to chan

by bko 5y ago

> What if that person was unimpressed by Bitcoin 5 years ago, could you explain what changed in the last 5 years (again, not mentioning change in price) to change their opinion of bitcoin? More liquidity allows people to get their money of their home currency and evade capital controls. In places like Argentina you're forced to use and hold a currency that's depreciating 50% a year. You get one exchange rate, while foreigners get another. And to top it off you're not allowed to hold USD or another stable currency. Sure it would be great if they got rid of capital controls but that's not the reality and people in these countries have to live with it. This was telling from the article: >> Citizens moving money out of authoritarian regimes. This is, by definition, illegal, but is it a net benefit to society? I don’t know. Maybe sometimes. I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls. To be so flippant about basic rights that people in developed countries have access to is really off-putting.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
> In places like Argentina you're forced to use and hold a currency that's depreciating 50% a year. Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? This has been beaten to death already and is just bs. Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. BTC hasn't democratized wealth, but concentrated in the hands who already owned lots of fiat/assets or those who have access to free energy for their mining enterprises. Poor people in poor countries have not benefited form BTC. I'm not saying that there aren't poor people in Argentina who put all they had in BTC when it was low and sold high and got out of poverty, but that's more akin to playing the lottery than an actual sane financial strategy for staying solvent. >I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime.
- derangedHorse 5y ago
  I don't know why the false assumption that Bitcoin fees are expensive keep propagating. Just last December $166 million was transferred for $1.25. In general I've never had to pay more than $5 for a transaction fee. Also, I don't know if living in a totalitarian regime a long time ago makes you all that much more an expert than OP.
- bko 5y ago
  > Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? I never said it would be a magic savior. I said its a good option for people that aren't legally allowed to hold a currency outside of their own country's depreciating currency. > Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. No one is forcing them to use crypto. I would like it to remain an option, even if they have to buy locally. You're the one that's in a high-earner bubble thinking they can just go down the street and open up a US denominated free checking account. > Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. There are cheaper ways to acquire crypto and there are also stable coins. But it doesn't sound like you're interested in that. If it really costs $26 then obviously that might be too expensive, or maybe not considering sending money through Western Union is often times more expensive. > Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. In Zimbabwe and Argentina and many other countries with capital controls, it's illegal to hold USD or other foreign currencies. > But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime. No I don't. But I'm not the one that wants to restrict what people in poor countries can or can't do with their money. That's you. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws-use-of-us-dollar-and-other-foreign-currencies https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws...
littlestymaar 5y ago
> I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls. To be so flippant about basic rights that people in developed countries have access to is really off-putting. Argentina isn't an authoritarian regime, and from what I learned when my wife lived there 9 years ago, one of the biggest challenge faced by the country actually comes from the wealthy people turning all pesos they could into USD (which drives the peso down, leading to bigger inflation because it raises import costs a lot). Capital control was actually set to avoid this issue (with pretty much no success) and if you really cared about Argentina, you should wish for a more effective way to counteract money evaporation instead of something that makes it easier.

by bko 5y ago

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

> In places like Argentina you're forced to use and hold a currency that's depreciating 50% a year. Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? This has been beaten to death already and is just bs. Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. BTC hasn't democratized wealth, but concentrated in the hands who already owned lots of fiat/assets or those who have access to free energy for their mining enterprises. Poor people in poor countries have not benefited form BTC. I'm not saying that there aren't poor people in Argentina who put all they had in BTC when it was low and sold high and got out of poverty, but that's more akin to playing the lottery than an actual sane financial strategy for staying solvent. >I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime.

derangedHorse 5y ago
I don't know why the false assumption that Bitcoin fees are expensive keep propagating. Just last December $166 million was transferred for $1.25. In general I've never had to pay more than $5 for a transaction fee. Also, I don't know if living in a totalitarian regime a long time ago makes you all that much more an expert than OP.
bko 5y ago
> Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? I never said it would be a magic savior. I said its a good option for people that aren't legally allowed to hold a currency outside of their own country's depreciating currency. > Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. No one is forcing them to use crypto. I would like it to remain an option, even if they have to buy locally. You're the one that's in a high-earner bubble thinking they can just go down the street and open up a US denominated free checking account. > Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. There are cheaper ways to acquire crypto and there are also stable coins. But it doesn't sound like you're interested in that. If it really costs $26 then obviously that might be too expensive, or maybe not considering sending money through Western Union is often times more expensive. > Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. In Zimbabwe and Argentina and many other countries with capital controls, it's illegal to hold USD or other foreign currencies. > But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime. No I don't. But I'm not the one that wants to restrict what people in poor countries can or can't do with their money. That's you. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws-use-of-us-dollar-and-other-foreign-currencies https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws...

littlestymaar 5y ago

> I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls. To be so flippant about basic rights that people in developed countries have access to is really off-putting. Argentina isn't an authoritarian regime, and from what I learned when my wife lived there 9 years ago, one of the biggest challenge faced by the country actually comes from the wealthy people turning all pesos they could into USD (which drives the peso down, leading to bigger inflation because it raises import costs a lot). Capital control was actually set to avoid this issue (with pretty much no success) and if you really cared about Argentina, you should wish for a more effective way to counteract money evaporation instead of something that makes it easier.