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Everyone's got 2c on bitcoin but here's mine: I don't consider the price of crypto when looking to see progress / success. Could you explain to somebody why Bi

Everyone's got 2c on bitcoin but here's mine: I don't consider the price of crypto when looking to see progress / success. Could you explain to somebody why Bitcoin is successful without mentioning that the price goes up, by talking only about the technology, product, and adoption? What if that person was unimpressed by Bitcoin 5 years ago, could you explain what changed in the last 5 years (again, not mentioning change in price) to change their opinion of bitcoin? AFAICT the main changes in Bitcoin in the past 5 years have been some incremental evolution of the technology that I'm not aware of changing the fundamental usage of the product in any way (SegWit, LN, and most recently Taproot). A note on blockchain proliferation: The author considers it a bad sign that there's an explosion in new blockchains. While I also consider it a bad sign for Bitcoin, I think it's a good thing for the ecosystem. My hope is that some day we'll have ubiquitous inter-chain protocols so, rather than obsessively hyping the coin/chain we're invested in, we can move all our digital assets and contracts to whatever blockchain offers the best technology, the best performance, and the lowest fees. This will allow for increased competition and evolution in the blockchain space. You can see the beginnings of this movement in some places, but it has a long way to go.

tim333 5y ago
User growth. Many users: https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1356310219215699968 https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1356310219215699968
- ac29 5y ago
  What a terrible chart. It has no Y-axis labeling and one of the trendlines they've drawn has the number of bitcoin users exceeding world population in a little over 5 years.
bko 5y ago
> What if that person was unimpressed by Bitcoin 5 years ago, could you explain what changed in the last 5 years (again, not mentioning change in price) to change their opinion of bitcoin? More liquidity allows people to get their money of their home currency and evade capital controls. In places like Argentina you're forced to use and hold a currency that's depreciating 50% a year. You get one exchange rate, while foreigners get another. And to top it off you're not allowed to hold USD or another stable currency. Sure it would be great if they got rid of capital controls but that's not the reality and people in these countries have to live with it. This was telling from the article: >> Citizens moving money out of authoritarian regimes. This is, by definition, illegal, but is it a net benefit to society? I don’t know. Maybe sometimes. I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls. To be so flippant about basic rights that people in developed countries have access to is really off-putting.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  > In places like Argentina you're forced to use and hold a currency that's depreciating 50% a year. Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? This has been beaten to death already and is just bs. Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. BTC hasn't democratized wealth, but concentrated in the hands who already owned lots of fiat/assets or those who have access to free energy for their mining enterprises. Poor people in poor countries have not benefited form BTC. I'm not saying that there aren't poor people in Argentina who put all they had in BTC when it was low and sold high and got out of poverty, but that's more akin to playing the lottery than an actual sane financial strategy for staying solvent. >I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime.
  - derangedHorse 5y ago
    I don't know why the false assumption that Bitcoin fees are expensive keep propagating. Just last December $166 million was transferred for $1.25. In general I've never had to pay more than $5 for a transaction fee. Also, I don't know if living in a totalitarian regime a long time ago makes you all that much more an expert than OP.
  - bko 5y ago
    > Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? I never said it would be a magic savior. I said its a good option for people that aren't legally allowed to hold a currency outside of their own country's depreciating currency. > Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. No one is forcing them to use crypto. I would like it to remain an option, even if they have to buy locally. You're the one that's in a high-earner bubble thinking they can just go down the street and open up a US denominated free checking account. > Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. There are cheaper ways to acquire crypto and there are also stable coins. But it doesn't sound like you're interested in that. If it really costs $26 then obviously that might be too expensive, or maybe not considering sending money through Western Union is often times more expensive. > Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. In Zimbabwe and Argentina and many other countries with capital controls, it's illegal to hold USD or other foreign currencies. > But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime. No I don't. But I'm not the one that wants to restrict what people in poor countries can or can't do with their money. That's you. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws-use-of-us-dollar-and-other-foreign-currencies https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws...
tata71 5y ago
> What if that person was unimpressed by Bitcoin 5 years ago, could you explain what changed in the last 5 years (again, not mentioning change in price) to change their opinion of bitcoin? WOW, all these walls of text replying. Simply put, Bitcoin's strengths: 1) resilience 2) that jack shit has changed, and it's still A-OK at storing funds. It is a slow-moving dinosaur of a blockchain, and that's how you should want your permanent store of value. "Slow" (still pretty fast compared to ACH!) protocol updates and careful, conservative governance = safety of your funds.
ngc248 5y ago
Its is like during the gold rush .... Founders/owners of these coins and DAOs are the ones selling shovels to normal people and making money. edited - for clarity

tim333 5y ago

User growth. Many users: https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1356310219215699968 https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1356310219215699968

ac29 5y ago
What a terrible chart. It has no Y-axis labeling and one of the trendlines they've drawn has the number of bitcoin users exceeding world population in a little over 5 years.

bko 5y ago

> What if that person was unimpressed by Bitcoin 5 years ago, could you explain what changed in the last 5 years (again, not mentioning change in price) to change their opinion of bitcoin? More liquidity allows people to get their money of their home currency and evade capital controls. In places like Argentina you're forced to use and hold a currency that's depreciating 50% a year. You get one exchange rate, while foreigners get another. And to top it off you're not allowed to hold USD or another stable currency. Sure it would be great if they got rid of capital controls but that's not the reality and people in these countries have to live with it. This was telling from the article: >> Citizens moving money out of authoritarian regimes. This is, by definition, illegal, but is it a net benefit to society? I don’t know. Maybe sometimes. I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls. To be so flippant about basic rights that people in developed countries have access to is really off-putting.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
> In places like Argentina you're forced to use and hold a currency that's depreciating 50% a year. Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? This has been beaten to death already and is just bs. Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. BTC hasn't democratized wealth, but concentrated in the hands who already owned lots of fiat/assets or those who have access to free energy for their mining enterprises. Poor people in poor countries have not benefited form BTC. I'm not saying that there aren't poor people in Argentina who put all they had in BTC when it was low and sold high and got out of poverty, but that's more akin to playing the lottery than an actual sane financial strategy for staying solvent. >I don't know where the author is from but I am almost certain he doesn't live in an authoritarian regime with capital controls But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime.
- derangedHorse 5y ago
  I don't know why the false assumption that Bitcoin fees are expensive keep propagating. Just last December $166 million was transferred for $1.25. In general I've never had to pay more than $5 for a transaction fee. Also, I don't know if living in a totalitarian regime a long time ago makes you all that much more an expert than OP.
- bko 5y ago
  > Can we please stop banging on with this trope that BTC is somehow the magic savior of poor people in oppressive regimes? I never said it would be a magic savior. I said its a good option for people that aren't legally allowed to hold a currency outside of their own country's depreciating currency. > Please try to look out of your western high-earner bubble and see that the majority of poor people in countries like Argentina, Afganistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. that suffer from that rampant inflation have not enough money and assets to buy into the bitcoin ecosystem and make it work on a daily basis. No one is forcing them to use crypto. I would like it to remain an option, even if they have to buy locally. You're the one that's in a high-earner bubble thinking they can just go down the street and open up a US denominated free checking account. > Again, in those countries, only the corrupt rich benefit form this new digital money laundering, tax evasion feature of BTC, as the average Joe there can't afford the $26(??) transaction fee every step of the way when that's the cost of their family groceries for a month. There are cheaper ways to acquire crypto and there are also stable coins. But it doesn't sound like you're interested in that. If it really costs $26 then obviously that might be too expensive, or maybe not considering sending money through Western Union is often times more expensive. > Everyone in those countries with failed currencies use stable fiat like USD or EUR to fend off inflation, not BTC. In Zimbabwe and Argentina and many other countries with capital controls, it's illegal to hold USD or other foreign currencies. > But do YOU live in an authoritarian regime? Or are you blowing smoke based on how you imagine life is in those countries from your cushy western perspective and stuff you read on reddit? Because I spent my childhood in a broke totalitarian regime. No I don't. But I'm not the one that wants to restrict what people in poor countries can or can't do with their money. That's you. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws-use-of-us-dollar-and-other-foreign-currencies https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/6/25/zimbabwe-outlaws...

tata71 5y ago

> What if that person was unimpressed by Bitcoin 5 years ago, could you explain what changed in the last 5 years (again, not mentioning change in price) to change their opinion of bitcoin? WOW, all these walls of text replying. Simply put, Bitcoin's strengths: 1) resilience 2) that jack shit has changed, and it's still A-OK at storing funds. It is a slow-moving dinosaur of a blockchain, and that's how you should want your permanent store of value. "Slow" (still pretty fast compared to ACH!) protocol updates and careful, conservative governance = safety of your funds.

ngc248 5y ago

Its is like during the gold rush .... Founders/owners of these coins and DAOs are the ones selling shovels to normal people and making money. edited - for clarity