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Munich did that a few years ago, which got rolled back after they elected the dude mayor who got Microsoft to move their German headquarters to Munich. Complete

Munich did that a few years ago, which got rolled back after they elected the dude mayor who got Microsoft to move their German headquarters to Munich. Completely unrelated events, of course. There were of course some technical problems as well, e.g. because a number of administrative tasks can only be performed using Excel 2003 with VBS macros enabled and stuff like that, as well as "technical problems", like "users can't install software themselves" (i.e. users don't have root on the clients).

apexalpha 5y ago
To be fair, you're probably downlplaying it. How much enterprise software runs on Linux? Probably not a lot. LibreOffice is nice, but it can't compete with MS office. let alone Exchange, outlook...
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Strange that so much of it moved to the web then, isn’t it?
- avh02 5y ago
  you have web portals for outlook at least (doesn't make it usable though, my daily struggles!) Then there's MS teams. I'd rather it just not run anywhere (die) instead of being a "good enough" solution bundled in to the suite. At least if it weren't there we could use something usable like slack instead.
  - MiddleEndian 5y ago
    I haven't used OS X in awhile, but IM clients should just copy Adium. It is (was?) so simple and light and easy to use, it integrated perfectly with OS X's Contacts app, and it was also being easily themed and styled by users. Also its dock icon showed the last few people who had messaged you in the background, rather than just the count of how many messages you had missed.
- sofixa 5y ago
  What "enterprise software" is needed at a public administration? Almost all of it is custom ordered, so Linux compatibility can be a part of the requirements. Outlook is a dumpster fire, and there are perfectly fine alternatives. Very few people actually need the full might of Excel, and you can always RemoteApp it to them, and have the rest use Libre Office. Or heck, provide them with actual tooling better fit for their requirements than Excel. And in any case, IMHO, "public money, public code". Nothing should be paid for with public money without it being publicly accessible afterwards ( excluding weaponry of course).
  - oblio 5y ago
    > Very few people actually need the full might of Excel How's the groupware situation on Linux? Mail, calendars, adding shared meeting rooms, etc.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      On Linux you can use a number of thick or web clients for any sort of groupware - Exchange, Office 365, OnlyOffice, Nextcloud, Collabora, Zoho something?
    - ognarb 5y ago
      KMail, Kalendar, Thunderbird, Nextcloud Groupware are all open source groupware solution what works on Linux. KMail was actually financed for some time by the german gouvernment.
    - silisili 5y ago
      I used Evolution for years, and it worked really well. Anymore I just keep Outlook web open in a web browser though. Not because Evolution is lacking, I just didn't really see the point in setting it up anymore.
- deknos 5y ago
  funny, the users didn't mind.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
Uhh "users can't install software themselves" is how things are supposed to be. If you're still giving everyone admin rights you're going to have a fun time every time one of them falls for phishing.
- leodriesch 5y ago
  Is this also true for developers? I’ve only seen “install anything you want” types of setups yet, are there companies that don’t allow that on your work laptop?
  - myohmy 5y ago
    Yes, developers are a major threat vector in any non-IT company. Which is why large companies can't innovate.
- BurningPenguin 5y ago
  I work in IT in a German company. Every user has admin rights on the local machine. Why? Because the IT-Boss couldn't figure out how to allow installing updates (software and OS) on Win 7 without having admin. And then there is the semi-official "shadow IT".
- slownews45 5y ago
  Welcome to bigtime shadow IT then in a white collar / high performing workforce. People will be using personal laptops, spinning up AWS instances etc to get work done especially if they collaborate with others. I worked at a place, folks had to go to the neighboring copy/print place to FAX themselves documents, because IT in its wisdom had locked down their machines and prohibited scanning docs (ie, they faxed to a virtual fax, then took those PDFs and sent them on). I am convinced that part of the AWS appeal for many folks is to escape this "best practice" IT control that just results in no progress / ability to get work done. This was 10x during pandemic. When IT hasn't yet gotten Zoom into default image, and you need Zoom or whatever to talk with others practically, so annoying.
  - 5y ago
earthnail 5y ago
I'm from Munich. As much as I would've liked that project to succeed (I really did), I can tell you that Limux - that was the project's name - was a brutal usability disaster. As in, almost meme-level bad. It's like the Berlin airport in software. Sure, Microsoft has a huge office in Munich, and they definitely applied political pressure, too (it'd be naive to assume they didn't). The project's stated goal was to be a showcase of how Linux can work in the public sector. But because of that goal, there was also massive political pressure the other way around. The simple truth is that Microsoft's products were/are just far superior than what the Limux initiative shipped. The Linux transition caused massive productivity losses in the municipality's administration. It's easy to say that VBS macros are evil, but if you migrate away from them, you need to provide an alternative. Simple things like a good calendar, working printing functionality, LOTS of basic stuff - it just felt like the IT was a decade behind. Here on HN, Windows continually gets roasted by how bad its UX is compared to Mac OS. With Limux vs Windows, the difference was practically 10x as large as that. I REALLY hope the LibreOffice transition goes well. Hopefully, this is a much wiser approach than trying to migrate everything off Windows at once.
- smartbettor 5y ago
  thanks for mentioning the Berlin airport fiasco - I had never heard the story - hilarious and very troubling for those in Berlin!
  - mlry 5y ago
    Oh, if you find the story of BER hilarious and troubling you should read up on the 2021 vote for federal and local parliaments. Or the civil administration there in general where you have to make an appointment to get your passport renewed months in advance.
    - pas 5y ago
      > 2021 vote for federal and local parliaments tldr?
      - 5y ago
mfer 5y ago
> "users can't install software themselves" This is one example of a real problem. Linux desktops are great for professional Linux people and hard core enthusiasts. Once you try to take them out to non-technical people trying to do everyday tasks it's much harder. I've driven numerous distros and keep running into UX problems masses will run into. How do we get distros that can be good daily drivers for the masses? How do we get people interested in crafting those?
- oblio 5y ago
  > How do we get distros that can be good daily drivers for the masses? How do we get people interested in crafting those? Heh, you might not like the answer. There might be a ton of alternatives somewhere out there, but there's only 1 real thing that seems to work with the information we have so far. So, what's the answer to these questions: > Q: How do we get distros that can be good daily drivers for the masses? How do we get people interested in crafting those? <<A. You pay them.>> Desktop environment polishing work is technically boring work and a thankless job. It's grunge work. Only a minority of experienced devs will do it willingly for a long time.
- deknos 5y ago
  this is misrepresentation. you cannot install systemwide software on any enterprise-installed system THAT was their problem. before limux there was no permission management and everybody was admin.
  - mfer 5y ago
    Windows and macOS allow you to install software (most of the time) without being an admin on the system. You only need to be an admin if the software to be installed needs certain capabilities. On Linux this isn't typical. You usually need to be an admin to install deb or rpm. Things are changing but it's not fast.
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      Wait, what? You mean, the Unix way of "you run your software from wherever you want" needs admin for installing software, while Windows doesn't? You can lock Linux down so that normal users can't replace almost the entire system on their sessions. This is possible. It is also usually a lot of work.
mikojan 5y ago
Never forget, Gates actually went to Munich in a luxurious mobile office disguised as a delivery truck to cajole that mayor.[0] [0]: https://www.golem.de/news/von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-es-gab-bei-limux-keine-unloesbaren-probleme-1911-144917-2.html https://www.golem.de/news/von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck...

apexalpha 5y ago

To be fair, you're probably downlplaying it. How much enterprise software runs on Linux? Probably not a lot. LibreOffice is nice, but it can't compete with MS office. let alone Exchange, outlook...

mixmastamyk 5y ago
Strange that so much of it moved to the web then, isn’t it?
avh02 5y ago
you have web portals for outlook at least (doesn't make it usable though, my daily struggles!) Then there's MS teams. I'd rather it just not run anywhere (die) instead of being a "good enough" solution bundled in to the suite. At least if it weren't there we could use something usable like slack instead.
- MiddleEndian 5y ago
  I haven't used OS X in awhile, but IM clients should just copy Adium. It is (was?) so simple and light and easy to use, it integrated perfectly with OS X's Contacts app, and it was also being easily themed and styled by users. Also its dock icon showed the last few people who had messaged you in the background, rather than just the count of how many messages you had missed.
sofixa 5y ago
What "enterprise software" is needed at a public administration? Almost all of it is custom ordered, so Linux compatibility can be a part of the requirements. Outlook is a dumpster fire, and there are perfectly fine alternatives. Very few people actually need the full might of Excel, and you can always RemoteApp it to them, and have the rest use Libre Office. Or heck, provide them with actual tooling better fit for their requirements than Excel. And in any case, IMHO, "public money, public code". Nothing should be paid for with public money without it being publicly accessible afterwards ( excluding weaponry of course).
- oblio 5y ago
  > Very few people actually need the full might of Excel How's the groupware situation on Linux? Mail, calendars, adding shared meeting rooms, etc.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    On Linux you can use a number of thick or web clients for any sort of groupware - Exchange, Office 365, OnlyOffice, Nextcloud, Collabora, Zoho something?
  - ognarb 5y ago
    KMail, Kalendar, Thunderbird, Nextcloud Groupware are all open source groupware solution what works on Linux. KMail was actually financed for some time by the german gouvernment.
  - silisili 5y ago
    I used Evolution for years, and it worked really well. Anymore I just keep Outlook web open in a web browser though. Not because Evolution is lacking, I just didn't really see the point in setting it up anymore.
deknos 5y ago
funny, the users didn't mind.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

Uhh "users can't install software themselves" is how things are supposed to be. If you're still giving everyone admin rights you're going to have a fun time every time one of them falls for phishing.

leodriesch 5y ago
Is this also true for developers? I’ve only seen “install anything you want” types of setups yet, are there companies that don’t allow that on your work laptop?
- myohmy 5y ago
  Yes, developers are a major threat vector in any non-IT company. Which is why large companies can't innovate.
BurningPenguin 5y ago
I work in IT in a German company. Every user has admin rights on the local machine. Why? Because the IT-Boss couldn't figure out how to allow installing updates (software and OS) on Win 7 without having admin. And then there is the semi-official "shadow IT".
slownews45 5y ago
Welcome to bigtime shadow IT then in a white collar / high performing workforce. People will be using personal laptops, spinning up AWS instances etc to get work done especially if they collaborate with others. I worked at a place, folks had to go to the neighboring copy/print place to FAX themselves documents, because IT in its wisdom had locked down their machines and prohibited scanning docs (ie, they faxed to a virtual fax, then took those PDFs and sent them on). I am convinced that part of the AWS appeal for many folks is to escape this "best practice" IT control that just results in no progress / ability to get work done. This was 10x during pandemic. When IT hasn't yet gotten Zoom into default image, and you need Zoom or whatever to talk with others practically, so annoying.
- 5y ago

earthnail 5y ago

I'm from Munich. As much as I would've liked that project to succeed (I really did), I can tell you that Limux - that was the project's name - was a brutal usability disaster. As in, almost meme-level bad. It's like the Berlin airport in software. Sure, Microsoft has a huge office in Munich, and they definitely applied political pressure, too (it'd be naive to assume they didn't). The project's stated goal was to be a showcase of how Linux can work in the public sector. But because of that goal, there was also massive political pressure the other way around. The simple truth is that Microsoft's products were/are just far superior than what the Limux initiative shipped. The Linux transition caused massive productivity losses in the municipality's administration. It's easy to say that VBS macros are evil, but if you migrate away from them, you need to provide an alternative. Simple things like a good calendar, working printing functionality, LOTS of basic stuff - it just felt like the IT was a decade behind. Here on HN, Windows continually gets roasted by how bad its UX is compared to Mac OS. With Limux vs Windows, the difference was practically 10x as large as that. I REALLY hope the LibreOffice transition goes well. Hopefully, this is a much wiser approach than trying to migrate everything off Windows at once.

smartbettor 5y ago
thanks for mentioning the Berlin airport fiasco - I had never heard the story - hilarious and very troubling for those in Berlin!
- mlry 5y ago
  Oh, if you find the story of BER hilarious and troubling you should read up on the 2021 vote for federal and local parliaments. Or the civil administration there in general where you have to make an appointment to get your passport renewed months in advance.
  - pas 5y ago
    > 2021 vote for federal and local parliaments tldr?
    - 5y ago

mfer 5y ago

> "users can't install software themselves" This is one example of a real problem. Linux desktops are great for professional Linux people and hard core enthusiasts. Once you try to take them out to non-technical people trying to do everyday tasks it's much harder. I've driven numerous distros and keep running into UX problems masses will run into. How do we get distros that can be good daily drivers for the masses? How do we get people interested in crafting those?

oblio 5y ago
> How do we get distros that can be good daily drivers for the masses? How do we get people interested in crafting those? Heh, you might not like the answer. There might be a ton of alternatives somewhere out there, but there's only 1 real thing that seems to work with the information we have so far. So, what's the answer to these questions: > Q: How do we get distros that can be good daily drivers for the masses? How do we get people interested in crafting those? <<A. You pay them.>> Desktop environment polishing work is technically boring work and a thankless job. It's grunge work. Only a minority of experienced devs will do it willingly for a long time.
deknos 5y ago
this is misrepresentation. you cannot install systemwide software on any enterprise-installed system THAT was their problem. before limux there was no permission management and everybody was admin.
- mfer 5y ago
  Windows and macOS allow you to install software (most of the time) without being an admin on the system. You only need to be an admin if the software to be installed needs certain capabilities. On Linux this isn't typical. You usually need to be an admin to install deb or rpm. Things are changing but it's not fast.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    Wait, what? You mean, the Unix way of "you run your software from wherever you want" needs admin for installing software, while Windows doesn't? You can lock Linux down so that normal users can't replace almost the entire system on their sessions. This is possible. It is also usually a lot of work.

mikojan 5y ago

Never forget, Gates actually went to Munich in a luxurious mobile office disguised as a delivery truck to cajole that mayor.[0] [0]: https://www.golem.de/news/von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-es-gab-bei-limux-keine-unloesbaren-probleme-1911-144917-2.html https://www.golem.de/news/von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck...