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Finding Your Swagger

141 points by exolymph 5y ago

keeptrying 5y ago
This kind of “brain dump” meeting is a great signal that you are possibly getting fired. It also means they find you very valuable. A good thing to highlight are all the things that could go wrong + associated costs to company and what you’re actively doing to manage those problems. That’ll give them pause.
Lurkynerd 5y ago
Fast hire, fast fire. OP is taking way too much on himself. I understand, and to a point respect the personal responsibility he takes, but he's going way overboard here. Perfectionism is the enemy of growth sometimes.
Toutouxc 5y ago
Kevin, I'm sorry that you had to go through this. If going through this brought you some fresh kind of insight or helped you grow as a person and a professional, then great, but I feel like going to the COO's house and pissing on their doormat would also be a pretty appropriate response to what they did to you.
julik 5y ago
It is impressive how, when we get into situations like this, an executive first absorbs all the knowledge we can provide, then swindles the employee (because they have firing power) and then it is _on the employee_ to feel bad, to regurgitate and to reflect "how to improve oneself". Brings tears to my eyes.
roopawl 5y ago
I hope OP realizes this is a toxic work environment
tibbar 5y ago
Management failed him. Getting slowly shut out for months, one bit of cryptic feedback from the CEO, and then fired a few months later without warning? This is how a company destroys its talent base.
- sunir 5y ago
  I’ll take it further. Who cares about the company? It’s how people destroy human beings.
kubb 5y ago
He challenged an egomaniac boss (by private email) and got fired, did I get it right?
- Rastonbury 5y ago
  Not sure if it was the boss or the political players whispering in the CEO's ears and wanting to take him down.
- treme 5y ago
  The way CEO responded to his letter doesn't make it like he was an egomaniac. Sounded more like COO & his clique felt threatened by him and he got out maneuvered politically.
avtolik 5y ago
Guys, you talk about his previous company and boss, but I don't think this was the focus of the blog post.
- f4stjack 5y ago
  Maybe so, but his previous company's attitude is sticking out like a sore thumb it overshadows the focus you saw...
- beingflo 5y ago
  You're right. But the story is presented as a personal failure without critically examining if the environment had a part in this.
- roland35 5y ago
  It's good to be resilient, but I think it is also important to see the example workplace as what it is too. It is just as much a factor in this story.
f4stjack 5y ago
Kevin I am sorry but you are not the one that is fault at here. There are several red flags but most noticably your ex firm lacks accountability. You shouldn't be hired with an impulsive decision, there shouldn't be closed doors decision making andyou should not be blamed because you executed the decisions made without your input. And getting fired after a whiteboard session with no heads up? Even though he knew he is going to fire you the next day? Man, you are BETTER off without that company. There will be other jobs, there will be other gigs but nothing is worth this. My 2 cents anyway.
- toyg 5y ago
  > getting fired after a whiteboard session with no heads up? Even though he knew he is going to fire you the next day Clearly the actions as described, and the choice of words ("complete download"), hint at the fact that they had decided months in advance that he would go, and just put in action a transition plan without telling him (COO more involved, etc). Absolutely cynical move.
- BlackjackCF 5y ago
  This workplace sounded VERY toxic. I feel bad for Kevin and how much this workplace destroyed his self-confidence.
- beingflo 5y ago
  Exactly my thoughts. They expected him to show initiative at an executive level while actively being excluded despite only being a PM in rank and presumably salary. Sounds like they were exploiting him.
- anotheraccount9 5y ago
  Sounds like an impulsive CEO, with mixed levels of trust with his (vertical) team. A functional team doesn't get to be intermittently inclusive, while sending mixed signals on your responsibilities and expectations.
- rendall 5y ago
  I came here to say exactly this, only not as well stated! Kevin, this comment is it.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I appreciate the honesty of the post. For myself, I don’t think having “swagger” is particularly constructive. Ego is a mind-killer. It is selling smoke. I’m quite good at what I do. In some things, I am very good; but at many, many other things, I still have a lot to learn, and in other areas, it’s best I stay out of the kitchen, entirely. In the areas in which I excel, I often exude great confidence, which is sometimes mistaken for arrogance. The key difference, though, is that I’m quite aware that I have yet to reach the summit. False confidence is a lie, but so is false humility. I’m good at what I do. I want people to feel assured. Confidence is a trait that helps to add to a team environment. Arrogance is corrosive. It damages a team. Regardless of how good I get, I’ve learned that kindness, respect, and empathy never go out of style. I can always listen to others, and treat them well. And, even more important; I always have something to learn. If I am working for others; either as an employee, or under contract, they are the boss. They may make rash, uninformed decisions, give terrible orders, and treat me (or worse, my work) like crap. I have to tuck in my bib, pick up a spoon, and engage in coprophagy. It sucks, but that’s life. I had to deal with it for a long, long time, and am grateful that I am finally free of it. I was a manager for a long time. I was a very good one, but I hated that job. I did a lot of open-source work during that time, as it kept me sane. Being humble was not a problem. I wasn’t that high on the food chain, and my bib was quite stained. During a long career, filled with bad decisions and mistakes, I have learned that there’s really no substitute for the kind of self-confidence (and humility) that is wrought by experience. “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.”
- deleted 5y ago
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- atoav 5y ago
  > “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.” And if you are clever you also get your experience from bad judgment others make.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    Yup. Another favorite aphorism: "A fool never learns. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others." One problem that I have with people being given huge responsibility, before getting much experience, is that we haven’t had time to see others make mistakes. One key reason that I was a good manager, was that I had many bad managers, and learned what not to do.
smilekzs 5y ago
Somehow reminded me of "Getting in the room, and stay there". https://staffeng.com/guides/getting-in-the-room https://staffeng.com/guides/getting-in-the-room Funny, because someone with a similar role from my workplace just recently left for roughly the same reason (at least peacefully). Basically when the gatekeeper(s) of The Room made it clear that you are not welcome, there is little you could do other than walking.
nothis 5y ago
I'm sorry, but I can't connect the dots in that story. 1) He did great (like, there's actual metrics mentioned) 2) Others wanted a different direction (even though he did great?) and didn't tell him 3) They excluded him from meetings 4) They fired him 5) He blamed not "re-centering" himself In the notes, he mentions that one of his later decisions (splitting engineering) was a bad choice. So isn't that the core of it, then? The way he describes it, it sounds like the problem was him not being himself but it sounds like it's a simple management error that the others were too socially awkward to point out to him, instead firing him outright.
- xyzzy123 5y ago
  Mainly it sounds like a failure to connect with everyone else and read the room. This is "getting kicked out of the tribe" 101 and people are normally very sensitive to this. But as a new leader it's hard to understand all your status relationships (and that the happiness of the people under you on the org chart affects the happiness of the people listed above you). You can disagree with everyone else, you can be overridden (and quit, or disagree and commit or whatever you have to do) but not to see it coming is to live in a fundamentally different reality than your team. One thing I notice is a lot of words devoted to senior leadership and the author's personal leadership experience but not much focus on the experience or input of the (100+) people doing the work. The reason you don't fire a really good leader is because they'll take the team with them! The blog post is a bit of a Rorschach test but for me that's how I parse the blind spot. I actually think it's a great blog post due to the Rashomon effect it seems to provoke among people who read it.
  - ilteris 5y ago
    I have a similar problem in my workplace. I have a hard time reading what's going on in the room or the relationships between ups and downs. It's exhausting. Is there a playbook for this type of thing?
    - deleted 5y ago
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benjaminwootton 5y ago
I agree with the other commenters that the guy was treated badly here. Impulsive hire, no feedback, poor communication, dumped unceremoniously. He sounds like a great employee who will do better elsewhere. I do think Swagger/Mojo is important in a work context though, as it is in other areas such as sports. Some people seem to make 1 or 2 good decisions, make a good impression, then their charisma and confidence propels them to leadership positions in a virtuous signal despite them being nothing special. They will then get to ride off the backs of others success if the project is going well. I’ve had a few jobs and projects myself where I seem to go from success to responsibility and respect undeservedly so, then others where I just can’t seem to get the virtuous circle spinning. It’s totally down to X factors like perception, confidence and personal fit rather than ability and decision making. As a manager I’ve even seen his the cards can be stacked in the early hours or weeks of a new gig. If someone comes in, is switched on, personable and makes some good decisions, it is incredibly difficult to stop that virtuous circle even if it isn’t deserved.
yobbo 5y ago
> When you spend time alone, you are left with nothing but yourself. And only from there can you find yourself, and your swagger, again. Not always. Some depend on others to "build them up", and they crumble if isolated. Also, what is good for the company is not necessarily good for you. But this is true for all employees, therefore there is nothing contradictory with people being "justifiably" motivated to take actions that are detrimental to the company. For example, excluding and railroading you. The only solution with those people is to enter into political dramas. If that doesn't sound attractive, go elsewhere. > knowing what you're good at and acting accordingly — earned confidence It's possible to make the mistake believing that competence holds currency. In some environments (maybe like in the company in question), it's rather "swagger" or "momentum" that is rewarded.
marcvizcaino 5y ago
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- marcvizcaino 5y ago
  asdfd
roland35 5y ago
This was a tough post to read, and I am glad the author was able to recover and land on his feet again. But, I can't help but think that this was an awful work environment. First of all, no one should feel blindsided and fired like that! It sounds like the only feedback he ever got was some received was some vague 'get your mojo back'. Also, having to force yourself into meetings is just a sign of toxic politics to me. It certainly doesn't need to be a formal top down structure, but when people start getting exclusionary and territorial that is a bad sign. I understand this is a startup, but there were 100 people! If the company is counting on everyone to impulsively take initiative that sounds like total chaos. Even when I worked at a company with 10 people I would think through proposals, then discuss them with my manager or the CEO before actually executing. The last thing is that having swagger shouldn't replace authenticity. People have a good ability to sniff out a phony, so be yourself. If you end up in some wild chaotic environment where you have to fight to survive, the best option may be to leave!
dustinmoris 5y ago
We obviously don't know like 99.9% of the full story, but the fact that he had a long session with the COO one evening and then got fired the very next day in the morning is just plain evil and wrong. It's not how you treat a human. It's disrespectful to say the least. The employee went home feeling good, so the COO basically charmed him up the day before firing him in order to get out the last ounce of what they considered was worth getting out of this employee before discarding him. That's disgusting behaviour and I personally would never want to work with such a COO or company at all. Now on the topic of swagger. I agree, it's important to know who you are and be comfortable to be that person. Every human contributes in their own way. Swagger doesn't mean ego or arrogance, to me swagger means you know your strengths and feel comfortable to play your role in your team/community/family/etc. Some people are great critical thinkers, some are great motivators, jokers, conservatives and risk averse planners, etc. You need all of them. Everyone has their own swagger. Some people are quiet and sit in the corner of a room and throw in a critical question at the right moment of a meeting which others might find annoying but in the end everyone knows it was good that it happened. Some talk a lot, walk into a room and make jokes and struggle to sometimes focus on the topic at hand but they lift up spirits and soften the mood when things get heated. Like there is really no perfect human being. You need all those different characters to contribute and it requires everyone to be accepting of the other person in order to really become a great team. This is how it works in strong families who go through thick and thin and this is how it works in great performing teams. Know yourself and know your swagger!
- dbsmith83 5y ago
  > You need all of them. Everyone has their own swagger... Love this. It's also interesting how when someone leaves a team, oftentimes teammates will step in a little to fill in the role the ex-teammate used to provide. It is kind of like a form a growth. I find myself thinking "What would ____ say about this?"
quickthrower2 5y ago
Reading this make me sad. Like the bullied kid at school vows to be tougher next time. Maybe the bully was wrong instead? Good to get tougher but not good to put it all in youself.
agd 5y ago
Thanks Kevin for writing this up. It's very hard to know the exact circumstances from one side of the story, but I agree wholeheartedly with voicing opinions when important, even if difficult or 'not your place'. And of course, it's usually a sign something has gone wrong with people management if someone is very surprised when they're fired.
DeathArrow 5y ago
It is not very clear why did they fire him. Did he not fulfill his duties? Being fired for not speaking when he was previously excluded from those discussions seems absurd. Anyway, he was hired as a PO, he wasn't a CTO or COO and wasn't responsible for the company strategy. Maybe he was fired because they didn't like him and he didn't go well along with the others? That would explain also why he was excluded from the discussions.
- toyg 5y ago
  At managerial level, the reasons for firing can range from "his underlings hated his guts and he was bakrupting the company" to "he looked at me funny". If the upper management team doesn't feel the connection with the mid-level, all bets are off. That's why the relationships are often feudal: "I am faithful to Mr. VP because I know he will protect me". If you are not protected by a robust chain going all the way to the C-level, then you're like grass waiting for the lawnmower. In this case, it's clear that at some point upper management lost faith in the guy and excluded him from steering decisions. He didn't fight back. When shit finally hit the fan they gaslit him by saying it was his fault, then proceeded to put in place a covert transition plan without telling him. He was naive in not seeing it coming, mis-identifying a series of brain dumps as "reconnecting", and when they felt they had everything they needed, the axe fell.
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zaphar 5y ago
Many folks are rightly pointing out that the picture of the company painted in this article sounds pretty toxic. I want to mention one point about confidence or as Kevin calls it swagger. Confidence, let's you say I'm valuable enough that I can find another job. It gives you negotiation leverage. Confidence empowers you to write to the CEO and say things like: It is beginning to look like my expertise and skills are no longer valued here. As a result, I started looking around and I have an offer from another company where I feel like I can better contribute. Confidence changes things so that you are never really trapped at at toxic company.
strogonoff 5y ago
From more of an engineering standpoint, those meetings with the COO seemed like textbook knowledge transfer to me, except the context (that the subject was not made aware of the nature of this event and his upcoming firing) reflects really bad on this company’s management. It reads as if the upper management treated the employee as a highly unpredictable individual who would undermine the company out of spite. They might have thought: if the author were to be informed in advance about potential firing, he would become… “problematic”, hold a grudge, sabotage knowledge transfer, leak something, or use the advance notice for some diversion and future legal action. On the face of it, this would point to insecurity or nearly-psychopathic tendencies in the employee—but, I suspect, it actually points to somebody in upper management who, probably due to childhood trauma, operates this way in life and hurts others by presuming they’re the same.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  On the other hand it could have been the COO trying to give Kevin a chance to show he's on board with the product direction, and the whiteboarding showed otherwise. Who knows?
  - djur 5y ago
    "Who knows?" is exactly the problem here. No transparency.
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      Sure, but it's a blog post. I don't think we can expect to get both sides of the story here.
fnord77 5y ago
> Be assertive and opinionated even when you aren't as sure. this is terrible advice. Anyway, this post reminds me of the subplot in the show Succession where the son-in-law thinks he's going to be promoted to CEO (from some meh position) and is strutting around like he's king... but in reality it is his wife that is on that track... and everyone is mocking the SIL behind his back.
mrdobalina 5y ago
What a great story... sounds like the guy learned how to like the smell of his own farts after being fired by an exploitative (typical startup bs) employer.
coldtea 5y ago
Sorry, but this is internalized "blaming the victim". Yes, you could have stood up when they started excluding you, but they could have just as easily fired you for standing up too. The environment was toxic - they excluded you behind your back, the CEO blamed you for being excluded, the COO fired you summarily after listening to your ideas, and they even did it as your wife was 7 months pregnant (which I'm sure they knew). That's not a company to work for, Swagger or not.
keeptrying 5y ago
Kevin, we met in SF. you have a habit of being hard on yourself and giving others the benefit of a doubt. I agree with others here - this was a toxic work culture. None of this was your fault but your method of building back up your confidence seems useful. Also anyone who fires someone with a pregnant wife is a repugnant human being.
Bhilai 5y ago
> [6] Fortunately, the company agreed to provide COBRA which would cover our insurance costs for the delivery. This is so crazy and why employer based insurance cannot be a safety net in the case you end up needing an expensive treatment while also losing your job.
- gambiting 5y ago
  It's even more crazy that you can be just fired on the spot like this. American employment system just fills me with dread when I think about it. But I guess people advocate for it because "it will never happen to them"?
  - piaste 5y ago
    From what I heard - anecdotes from my online friends' parents and grandparents - in the mid-20th century it used to be ridiculously easy to get a job, for all social classes. One anecdote that stuck in my mind was someone's grandfather in the 1950s quitting and going to work to a different factory only because they gave one week's pay in advance and they needed the money to take a girl on a date that weekend. Nowadays I hear things have changed a tiny little bit. But if you're a software engineer who reads Hacker News, you probably still don't need to worry much about finding a job at all, only about finding an enjoyable job in the right place that ensures a sufficiently upper-class salary.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  If we're in a one-sided class war, insurance and share-based 401k's are the capital-classes trojan horses.
keeptrying 5y ago
Confidence is a choice till it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If confidence is failing you, think about the work your grandad did to make a living. ( Mine used to toil away on 3 acres of land for his entire life.)
pc86 5y ago
> I let my title, rather than my beliefs, dictate my actions. On the flip side, I've worked with junior and mid-level developers who want to have the entire context of every executive decision, and worse want to second-guess and judge those decisions rather than implement the feature or fix the bug they were told to. I think more information is almost always better, but sometimes you just need to get your work done. Titles are a very rough and arbitrary way of trying to draw those boundaries between what you're supposed to decide, what you're supposed to influence, and what you're supposed to accept.
ryaniscool 5y ago
They had to offer you COBRA because it's the law. In fact, COBRA is an acronym for the name of law that requires it (Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act). There is no reason to be grateful.
Nekorosu 5y ago
Really emotionally heavy read. I'm not sure how it is properly called in psychology but it reminds me of Stockholm syndrome. Sometimes it's hard to acknowledge you've been ***.
aj7 5y ago
I saw elements of my own experience everywhere here. But: “4] This is a weird but recurring behavior of mine. When sitting with a (professional) group for the first time, I will always put myself at the edge. It's not because I'm avoiding the "power position" or anything. It's that I prefer to observe everyone first. And the best place to do that, is from the edge.” No. No. In American society, this 1-1.5 sigma deviant behavior. You were broadcasting, “I’m considering, on my terms, whether or not to join this group.” Consider overriding this strategy, even if it is “work.” In a group, I would consider trying to sit as close to the center of mass as possible.
oliv__ 5y ago
I appreciated the honesty in this piece but something in the way the author places all blame on himself struck me as inappropriate (at least if I were putting myself in his shoes): "I thought about my best moments. I thought about my worst moments. I derived the behaviors and attributes that led to each. I wrote a list of personal values" I don't think it's right or even helpful to try to quantify and reduce a human being to a list of values and pluses or minuses. Saying that you "lost yourself" and need to find it back sounds like agreeing with the premise that you fit in this neat mold that the CEO and COO have defined for you and puts you in danger of "losing your shape" whenever those people decide so. It sounds like a very externally-oriented appraisal of one's self.
crnkofe 5y ago
One day you're family, next day you're on the street. Never treat company too intimately. If money is tight everyone becomes a waste product. I'm pretty sure the writer did the best he could but in the end it wasn't good enough for some reason. I don't think his ability or performance had much to do with it. I felt kind of similar when at some point I got fired and got told management made a mistake in calculating some financials. ** happens. Take a walk, make an attempt to travel, procrastinate a bit. Everyone's got an agenda so don't treat those exit interviews and last final words too much to heart.
xutopia 5y ago
Your performance at a job is not limited to solely your behavior but that of the team. If the team is not leveraging your skills and sideline you then of course you're going to feel bad... just like you think it's not healthy to blame them... it's not healthy to blame yourself. Sometimes it's simply not the team you're going to be doing your best work with.
5754797 5y ago
This is the cycle at all companies. People join, politics gets played out, people leave or are fired, those in power consolidate their position. I’ve never lacked swagger but I’ve been the powerful and I’ve also been the fired. Indeed having confidence is just another reason to get fired …. If you’re smarter than someone else then they don’t want you there …. it’s just politics it means nothing. It’s not personal, it’s politics. Just find somewhere else that you fit better. Also, if you plan to be in any level of management, read “The Prince”.

141 points by exolymph 5y ago

This kind of “brain dump” meeting is a great signal that you are possibly getting fired. It also means they find you very valuable. A good thing to highlight are all the things that could go wrong + associated costs to company and what you’re actively doing to manage those problems. That’ll give them pause.

Lurkynerd 5y ago

Fast hire, fast fire. OP is taking way too much on himself. I understand, and to a point respect the personal responsibility he takes, but he's going way overboard here. Perfectionism is the enemy of growth sometimes.

Toutouxc 5y ago

Kevin, I'm sorry that you had to go through this. If going through this brought you some fresh kind of insight or helped you grow as a person and a professional, then great, but I feel like going to the COO's house and pissing on their doormat would also be a pretty appropriate response to what they did to you.

julik 5y ago

It is impressive how, when we get into situations like this, an executive first absorbs all the knowledge we can provide, then swindles the employee (because they have firing power) and then it is _on the employee_ to feel bad, to regurgitate and to reflect "how to improve oneself". Brings tears to my eyes.

roopawl 5y ago

I hope OP realizes this is a toxic work environment

tibbar 5y ago

Management failed him. Getting slowly shut out for months, one bit of cryptic feedback from the CEO, and then fired a few months later without warning? This is how a company destroys its talent base.

sunir 5y ago
I’ll take it further. Who cares about the company? It’s how people destroy human beings.

kubb 5y ago

He challenged an egomaniac boss (by private email) and got fired, did I get it right?

Rastonbury 5y ago
Not sure if it was the boss or the political players whispering in the CEO's ears and wanting to take him down.
treme 5y ago
The way CEO responded to his letter doesn't make it like he was an egomaniac. Sounded more like COO & his clique felt threatened by him and he got out maneuvered politically.

avtolik 5y ago

Guys, you talk about his previous company and boss, but I don't think this was the focus of the blog post.

f4stjack 5y ago
Maybe so, but his previous company's attitude is sticking out like a sore thumb it overshadows the focus you saw...
beingflo 5y ago
You're right. But the story is presented as a personal failure without critically examining if the environment had a part in this.
roland35 5y ago
It's good to be resilient, but I think it is also important to see the example workplace as what it is too. It is just as much a factor in this story.

f4stjack 5y ago

Kevin I am sorry but you are not the one that is fault at here. There are several red flags but most noticably your ex firm lacks accountability. You shouldn't be hired with an impulsive decision, there shouldn't be closed doors decision making andyou should not be blamed because you executed the decisions made without your input. And getting fired after a whiteboard session with no heads up? Even though he knew he is going to fire you the next day? Man, you are BETTER off without that company. There will be other jobs, there will be other gigs but nothing is worth this. My 2 cents anyway.

toyg 5y ago
> getting fired after a whiteboard session with no heads up? Even though he knew he is going to fire you the next day Clearly the actions as described, and the choice of words ("complete download"), hint at the fact that they had decided months in advance that he would go, and just put in action a transition plan without telling him (COO more involved, etc). Absolutely cynical move.
BlackjackCF 5y ago
This workplace sounded VERY toxic. I feel bad for Kevin and how much this workplace destroyed his self-confidence.
beingflo 5y ago
Exactly my thoughts. They expected him to show initiative at an executive level while actively being excluded despite only being a PM in rank and presumably salary. Sounds like they were exploiting him.
anotheraccount9 5y ago
Sounds like an impulsive CEO, with mixed levels of trust with his (vertical) team. A functional team doesn't get to be intermittently inclusive, while sending mixed signals on your responsibilities and expectations.
rendall 5y ago
I came here to say exactly this, only not as well stated! Kevin, this comment is it.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I appreciate the honesty of the post. For myself, I don’t think having “swagger” is particularly constructive. Ego is a mind-killer. It is selling smoke. I’m quite good at what I do. In some things, I am very good; but at many, many other things, I still have a lot to learn, and in other areas, it’s best I stay out of the kitchen, entirely. In the areas in which I excel, I often exude great confidence, which is sometimes mistaken for arrogance. The key difference, though, is that I’m quite aware that I have yet to reach the summit. False confidence is a lie, but so is false humility. I’m good at what I do. I want people to feel assured. Confidence is a trait that helps to add to a team environment. Arrogance is corrosive. It damages a team. Regardless of how good I get, I’ve learned that kindness, respect, and empathy never go out of style. I can always listen to others, and treat them well. And, even more important; I always have something to learn. If I am working for others; either as an employee, or under contract, they are the boss. They may make rash, uninformed decisions, give terrible orders, and treat me (or worse, my work) like crap. I have to tuck in my bib, pick up a spoon, and engage in coprophagy. It sucks, but that’s life. I had to deal with it for a long, long time, and am grateful that I am finally free of it. I was a manager for a long time. I was a very good one, but I hated that job. I did a lot of open-source work during that time, as it kept me sane. Being humble was not a problem. I wasn’t that high on the food chain, and my bib was quite stained. During a long career, filled with bad decisions and mistakes, I have learned that there’s really no substitute for the kind of self-confidence (and humility) that is wrought by experience. “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.”

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atoav 5y ago
> “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.” And if you are clever you also get your experience from bad judgment others make.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  Yup. Another favorite aphorism: "A fool never learns. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others." One problem that I have with people being given huge responsibility, before getting much experience, is that we haven’t had time to see others make mistakes. One key reason that I was a good manager, was that I had many bad managers, and learned what not to do.

smilekzs 5y ago

Somehow reminded me of "Getting in the room, and stay there". https://staffeng.com/guides/getting-in-the-room https://staffeng.com/guides/getting-in-the-room Funny, because someone with a similar role from my workplace just recently left for roughly the same reason (at least peacefully). Basically when the gatekeeper(s) of The Room made it clear that you are not welcome, there is little you could do other than walking.

nothis 5y ago

I'm sorry, but I can't connect the dots in that story. 1) He did great (like, there's actual metrics mentioned) 2) Others wanted a different direction (even though he did great?) and didn't tell him 3) They excluded him from meetings 4) They fired him 5) He blamed not "re-centering" himself In the notes, he mentions that one of his later decisions (splitting engineering) was a bad choice. So isn't that the core of it, then? The way he describes it, it sounds like the problem was him not being himself but it sounds like it's a simple management error that the others were too socially awkward to point out to him, instead firing him outright.

xyzzy123 5y ago
Mainly it sounds like a failure to connect with everyone else and read the room. This is "getting kicked out of the tribe" 101 and people are normally very sensitive to this. But as a new leader it's hard to understand all your status relationships (and that the happiness of the people under you on the org chart affects the happiness of the people listed above you). You can disagree with everyone else, you can be overridden (and quit, or disagree and commit or whatever you have to do) but not to see it coming is to live in a fundamentally different reality than your team. One thing I notice is a lot of words devoted to senior leadership and the author's personal leadership experience but not much focus on the experience or input of the (100+) people doing the work. The reason you don't fire a really good leader is because they'll take the team with them! The blog post is a bit of a Rorschach test but for me that's how I parse the blind spot. I actually think it's a great blog post due to the Rashomon effect it seems to provoke among people who read it.
- ilteris 5y ago
  I have a similar problem in my workplace. I have a hard time reading what's going on in the room or the relationships between ups and downs. It's exhausting. Is there a playbook for this type of thing?
  - deleted 5y ago
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benjaminwootton 5y ago

I agree with the other commenters that the guy was treated badly here. Impulsive hire, no feedback, poor communication, dumped unceremoniously. He sounds like a great employee who will do better elsewhere. I do think Swagger/Mojo is important in a work context though, as it is in other areas such as sports. Some people seem to make 1 or 2 good decisions, make a good impression, then their charisma and confidence propels them to leadership positions in a virtuous signal despite them being nothing special. They will then get to ride off the backs of others success if the project is going well. I’ve had a few jobs and projects myself where I seem to go from success to responsibility and respect undeservedly so, then others where I just can’t seem to get the virtuous circle spinning. It’s totally down to X factors like perception, confidence and personal fit rather than ability and decision making. As a manager I’ve even seen his the cards can be stacked in the early hours or weeks of a new gig. If someone comes in, is switched on, personable and makes some good decisions, it is incredibly difficult to stop that virtuous circle even if it isn’t deserved.

yobbo 5y ago

> When you spend time alone, you are left with nothing but yourself. And only from there can you find yourself, and your swagger, again. Not always. Some depend on others to "build them up", and they crumble if isolated. Also, what is good for the company is not necessarily good for you. But this is true for all employees, therefore there is nothing contradictory with people being "justifiably" motivated to take actions that are detrimental to the company. For example, excluding and railroading you. The only solution with those people is to enter into political dramas. If that doesn't sound attractive, go elsewhere. > knowing what you're good at and acting accordingly — earned confidence It's possible to make the mistake believing that competence holds currency. In some environments (maybe like in the company in question), it's rather "swagger" or "momentum" that is rewarded.

marcvizcaino 5y ago

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marcvizcaino 5y ago
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roland35 5y ago

This was a tough post to read, and I am glad the author was able to recover and land on his feet again. But, I can't help but think that this was an awful work environment. First of all, no one should feel blindsided and fired like that! It sounds like the only feedback he ever got was some received was some vague 'get your mojo back'. Also, having to force yourself into meetings is just a sign of toxic politics to me. It certainly doesn't need to be a formal top down structure, but when people start getting exclusionary and territorial that is a bad sign. I understand this is a startup, but there were 100 people! If the company is counting on everyone to impulsively take initiative that sounds like total chaos. Even when I worked at a company with 10 people I would think through proposals, then discuss them with my manager or the CEO before actually executing. The last thing is that having swagger shouldn't replace authenticity. People have a good ability to sniff out a phony, so be yourself. If you end up in some wild chaotic environment where you have to fight to survive, the best option may be to leave!

dustinmoris 5y ago

We obviously don't know like 99.9% of the full story, but the fact that he had a long session with the COO one evening and then got fired the very next day in the morning is just plain evil and wrong. It's not how you treat a human. It's disrespectful to say the least. The employee went home feeling good, so the COO basically charmed him up the day before firing him in order to get out the last ounce of what they considered was worth getting out of this employee before discarding him. That's disgusting behaviour and I personally would never want to work with such a COO or company at all. Now on the topic of swagger. I agree, it's important to know who you are and be comfortable to be that person. Every human contributes in their own way. Swagger doesn't mean ego or arrogance, to me swagger means you know your strengths and feel comfortable to play your role in your team/community/family/etc. Some people are great critical thinkers, some are great motivators, jokers, conservatives and risk averse planners, etc. You need all of them. Everyone has their own swagger. Some people are quiet and sit in the corner of a room and throw in a critical question at the right moment of a meeting which others might find annoying but in the end everyone knows it was good that it happened. Some talk a lot, walk into a room and make jokes and struggle to sometimes focus on the topic at hand but they lift up spirits and soften the mood when things get heated. Like there is really no perfect human being. You need all those different characters to contribute and it requires everyone to be accepting of the other person in order to really become a great team. This is how it works in strong families who go through thick and thin and this is how it works in great performing teams. Know yourself and know your swagger!

dbsmith83 5y ago
> You need all of them. Everyone has their own swagger... Love this. It's also interesting how when someone leaves a team, oftentimes teammates will step in a little to fill in the role the ex-teammate used to provide. It is kind of like a form a growth. I find myself thinking "What would ____ say about this?"

quickthrower2 5y ago

Reading this make me sad. Like the bullied kid at school vows to be tougher next time. Maybe the bully was wrong instead? Good to get tougher but not good to put it all in youself.

agd 5y ago

Thanks Kevin for writing this up. It's very hard to know the exact circumstances from one side of the story, but I agree wholeheartedly with voicing opinions when important, even if difficult or 'not your place'. And of course, it's usually a sign something has gone wrong with people management if someone is very surprised when they're fired.

DeathArrow 5y ago

It is not very clear why did they fire him. Did he not fulfill his duties? Being fired for not speaking when he was previously excluded from those discussions seems absurd. Anyway, he was hired as a PO, he wasn't a CTO or COO and wasn't responsible for the company strategy. Maybe he was fired because they didn't like him and he didn't go well along with the others? That would explain also why he was excluded from the discussions.

toyg 5y ago
At managerial level, the reasons for firing can range from "his underlings hated his guts and he was bakrupting the company" to "he looked at me funny". If the upper management team doesn't feel the connection with the mid-level, all bets are off. That's why the relationships are often feudal: "I am faithful to Mr. VP because I know he will protect me". If you are not protected by a robust chain going all the way to the C-level, then you're like grass waiting for the lawnmower. In this case, it's clear that at some point upper management lost faith in the guy and excluded him from steering decisions. He didn't fight back. When shit finally hit the fan they gaslit him by saying it was his fault, then proceeded to put in place a covert transition plan without telling him. He was naive in not seeing it coming, mis-identifying a series of brain dumps as "reconnecting", and when they felt they had everything they needed, the axe fell.

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zaphar 5y ago

Many folks are rightly pointing out that the picture of the company painted in this article sounds pretty toxic. I want to mention one point about confidence or as Kevin calls it swagger. Confidence, let's you say I'm valuable enough that I can find another job. It gives you negotiation leverage. Confidence empowers you to write to the CEO and say things like: It is beginning to look like my expertise and skills are no longer valued here. As a result, I started looking around and I have an offer from another company where I feel like I can better contribute. Confidence changes things so that you are never really trapped at at toxic company.

strogonoff 5y ago

From more of an engineering standpoint, those meetings with the COO seemed like textbook knowledge transfer to me, except the context (that the subject was not made aware of the nature of this event and his upcoming firing) reflects really bad on this company’s management. It reads as if the upper management treated the employee as a highly unpredictable individual who would undermine the company out of spite. They might have thought: if the author were to be informed in advance about potential firing, he would become… “problematic”, hold a grudge, sabotage knowledge transfer, leak something, or use the advance notice for some diversion and future legal action. On the face of it, this would point to insecurity or nearly-psychopathic tendencies in the employee—but, I suspect, it actually points to somebody in upper management who, probably due to childhood trauma, operates this way in life and hurts others by presuming they’re the same.

notreallyserio 5y ago
On the other hand it could have been the COO trying to give Kevin a chance to show he's on board with the product direction, and the whiteboarding showed otherwise. Who knows?
- djur 5y ago
  "Who knows?" is exactly the problem here. No transparency.
  - notreallyserio 5y ago
    Sure, but it's a blog post. I don't think we can expect to get both sides of the story here.

fnord77 5y ago

> Be assertive and opinionated even when you aren't as sure. this is terrible advice. Anyway, this post reminds me of the subplot in the show Succession where the son-in-law thinks he's going to be promoted to CEO (from some meh position) and is strutting around like he's king... but in reality it is his wife that is on that track... and everyone is mocking the SIL behind his back.

mrdobalina 5y ago

What a great story... sounds like the guy learned how to like the smell of his own farts after being fired by an exploitative (typical startup bs) employer.

coldtea 5y ago

Sorry, but this is internalized "blaming the victim". Yes, you could have stood up when they started excluding you, but they could have just as easily fired you for standing up too. The environment was toxic - they excluded you behind your back, the CEO blamed you for being excluded, the COO fired you summarily after listening to your ideas, and they even did it as your wife was 7 months pregnant (which I'm sure they knew). That's not a company to work for, Swagger or not.

keeptrying 5y ago

Kevin, we met in SF. you have a habit of being hard on yourself and giving others the benefit of a doubt. I agree with others here - this was a toxic work culture. None of this was your fault but your method of building back up your confidence seems useful. Also anyone who fires someone with a pregnant wife is a repugnant human being.

Bhilai 5y ago

> [6] Fortunately, the company agreed to provide COBRA which would cover our insurance costs for the delivery. This is so crazy and why employer based insurance cannot be a safety net in the case you end up needing an expensive treatment while also losing your job.

gambiting 5y ago
It's even more crazy that you can be just fired on the spot like this. American employment system just fills me with dread when I think about it. But I guess people advocate for it because "it will never happen to them"?
- piaste 5y ago
  From what I heard - anecdotes from my online friends' parents and grandparents - in the mid-20th century it used to be ridiculously easy to get a job, for all social classes. One anecdote that stuck in my mind was someone's grandfather in the 1950s quitting and going to work to a different factory only because they gave one week's pay in advance and they needed the money to take a girl on a date that weekend. Nowadays I hear things have changed a tiny little bit. But if you're a software engineer who reads Hacker News, you probably still don't need to worry much about finding a job at all, only about finding an enjoyable job in the right place that ensures a sufficiently upper-class salary.
sangnoir 5y ago
If we're in a one-sided class war, insurance and share-based 401k's are the capital-classes trojan horses.

keeptrying 5y ago

Confidence is a choice till it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If confidence is failing you, think about the work your grandad did to make a living. ( Mine used to toil away on 3 acres of land for his entire life.)

pc86 5y ago

> I let my title, rather than my beliefs, dictate my actions. On the flip side, I've worked with junior and mid-level developers who want to have the entire context of every executive decision, and worse want to second-guess and judge those decisions rather than implement the feature or fix the bug they were told to. I think more information is almost always better, but sometimes you just need to get your work done. Titles are a very rough and arbitrary way of trying to draw those boundaries between what you're supposed to decide, what you're supposed to influence, and what you're supposed to accept.

ryaniscool 5y ago

They had to offer you COBRA because it's the law. In fact, COBRA is an acronym for the name of law that requires it (Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act). There is no reason to be grateful.

Nekorosu 5y ago

Really emotionally heavy read. I'm not sure how it is properly called in psychology but it reminds me of Stockholm syndrome. Sometimes it's hard to acknowledge you've been ***.

aj7 5y ago

I saw elements of my own experience everywhere here. But: “4] This is a weird but recurring behavior of mine. When sitting with a (professional) group for the first time, I will always put myself at the edge. It's not because I'm avoiding the "power position" or anything. It's that I prefer to observe everyone first. And the best place to do that, is from the edge.” No. No. In American society, this 1-1.5 sigma deviant behavior. You were broadcasting, “I’m considering, on my terms, whether or not to join this group.” Consider overriding this strategy, even if it is “work.” In a group, I would consider trying to sit as close to the center of mass as possible.

oliv__ 5y ago

I appreciated the honesty in this piece but something in the way the author places all blame on himself struck me as inappropriate (at least if I were putting myself in his shoes): "I thought about my best moments. I thought about my worst moments. I derived the behaviors and attributes that led to each. I wrote a list of personal values" I don't think it's right or even helpful to try to quantify and reduce a human being to a list of values and pluses or minuses. Saying that you "lost yourself" and need to find it back sounds like agreeing with the premise that you fit in this neat mold that the CEO and COO have defined for you and puts you in danger of "losing your shape" whenever those people decide so. It sounds like a very externally-oriented appraisal of one's self.

crnkofe 5y ago

One day you're family, next day you're on the street. Never treat company too intimately. If money is tight everyone becomes a waste product. I'm pretty sure the writer did the best he could but in the end it wasn't good enough for some reason. I don't think his ability or performance had much to do with it. I felt kind of similar when at some point I got fired and got told management made a mistake in calculating some financials. ** happens. Take a walk, make an attempt to travel, procrastinate a bit. Everyone's got an agenda so don't treat those exit interviews and last final words too much to heart.

xutopia 5y ago

Your performance at a job is not limited to solely your behavior but that of the team. If the team is not leveraging your skills and sideline you then of course you're going to feel bad... just like you think it's not healthy to blame them... it's not healthy to blame yourself. Sometimes it's simply not the team you're going to be doing your best work with.

5754797 5y ago

This is the cycle at all companies. People join, politics gets played out, people leave or are fired, those in power consolidate their position. I’ve never lacked swagger but I’ve been the powerful and I’ve also been the fired. Indeed having confidence is just another reason to get fired …. If you’re smarter than someone else then they don’t want you there …. it’s just politics it means nothing. It’s not personal, it’s politics. Just find somewhere else that you fit better. Also, if you plan to be in any level of management, read “The Prince”.