3 ms·

Convenience blinds.

dreyfan 5y ago
Yeah I suppose? I think the “git push and it’s magically live” aspect is great. I just wish modern devs understood how the web actually functions so that understanding is transferable instead of thinking it’s all magic.
- rglover 5y ago
  Unless they have a personal desire to do so, they won't. Most developers are driven by what others are doing and if everyone is building on Netlify and using Cloudflare Workers, they'll just do that and assume they understand. This will inevitably end with a whole lot of people not having a clue how to do what they think they know how to do when these companies go poof (or are swallowed by private equity).
  - nostrebored 5y ago
    If they go poof, competitors will take their space. People have decided managed services are worth the cost. Building them is not inordinately complicated. There will always be contenders.
    - rglover 5y ago
      If there are people who understand how to build the replacement. This is a degenerative spiral. I'll be wrong for ten years and then all of a sudden? There's no one around to Superman in and save the day.
virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago
So things shouldn't be simpler, faster and easier to use?
- rglover 5y ago
  They should/can, but not at the expense of understanding how the underlying system works. Right now, the major players significantly abstract away from "how the web works" which means newer developers don't understand and are being led into a trap. Cute marketing terms like "serverless" confuse developers into thinking there is no server (or even worse, that there's such a thing as a "serverless developer"). I'm working on this problem right now: https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick. I know I sound like a curmudgeon when I say this stuff but it's a serious problem that will have dire consequences later (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko).
  - gk1 5y ago
    Have you actually run into developers who think "serverless" means there is no server anywhere? Does anyone think "cloud" means there are no servers? I think -- and maybe I'm wrong -- it's obvious that of course there's a server, it's just not mine to care for.
    - rglover 5y ago
      Yes, I've worked with them 1-on-1.
  - bnchrch 5y ago
    I do love that this is literally old man yells at the cloud. Though in general our profession is built on and about building abstractions. I don’t expect every 2010s web dev to know the intricacies of memory allocation, nor do I expect every 2020s web dev to know about nginx config or asset cache invalidation. It’s handy sure, but required no. They’re all abstractions that you learn if and when necessary.
    - rglover 5y ago
      I'm 33.

Convenience blinds.

Yeah I suppose? I think the “git push and it’s magically live” aspect is great. I just wish modern devs understood how the web actually functions so that understanding is transferable instead of thinking it’s all magic.

rglover 5y ago
Unless they have a personal desire to do so, they won't. Most developers are driven by what others are doing and if everyone is building on Netlify and using Cloudflare Workers, they'll just do that and assume they understand. This will inevitably end with a whole lot of people not having a clue how to do what they think they know how to do when these companies go poof (or are swallowed by private equity).
- nostrebored 5y ago
  If they go poof, competitors will take their space. People have decided managed services are worth the cost. Building them is not inordinately complicated. There will always be contenders.
  - rglover 5y ago
    If there are people who understand how to build the replacement. This is a degenerative spiral. I'll be wrong for ten years and then all of a sudden? There's no one around to Superman in and save the day.

virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago

So things shouldn't be simpler, faster and easier to use?

rglover 5y ago
They should/can, but not at the expense of understanding how the underlying system works. Right now, the major players significantly abstract away from "how the web works" which means newer developers don't understand and are being led into a trap. Cute marketing terms like "serverless" confuse developers into thinking there is no server (or even worse, that there's such a thing as a "serverless developer"). I'm working on this problem right now: https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick. I know I sound like a curmudgeon when I say this stuff but it's a serious problem that will have dire consequences later (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko).
- gk1 5y ago
  Have you actually run into developers who think "serverless" means there is no server anywhere? Does anyone think "cloud" means there are no servers? I think -- and maybe I'm wrong -- it's obvious that of course there's a server, it's just not mine to care for.
  - rglover 5y ago
    Yes, I've worked with them 1-on-1.
- bnchrch 5y ago
  I do love that this is literally old man yells at the cloud. Though in general our profession is built on and about building abstractions. I don’t expect every 2010s web dev to know the intricacies of memory allocation, nor do I expect every 2020s web dev to know about nginx config or asset cache invalidation. It’s handy sure, but required no. They’re all abstractions that you learn if and when necessary.
  - rglover 5y ago
    I'm 33.