9 ms·

How similar to Ivermectin is the new Pfizer covid drug?

by Tycho 5y ago

pjc50 5y ago
Paxlovid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PF-07321332 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PF-07321332 protease inhibitor; Ivermectin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin binds to chloride channels and is a nerve poison for invertebrates. The molecular layouts look completely different.
- gardnr 5y ago
  This study shows Ivermectin functions as a protease inhibitor https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/ Here is the fact check evaluation from Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-pfizer-idUSL1N2R11T5 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-pfizer...
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Yes, and that fact check evaluates to "false"?
    - gardnr 5y ago
      Yeah. Reuters says it’s false. John Campbell, a retired nurse with a PhD in philosophy was fact checked on it as well. He has a response video: https://youtu.be/ObTAOvgd_JE https://youtu.be/ObTAOvgd_JE It doesn’t really matter given that ivermectin is not effective.
      - HamburgerEmoji 5y ago
        > It doesn’t really matter given that ivermectin is not effective. Unfortunately, you're in disagreement with doctors who have personally saved thousands of lives. Ask the people who came up with the MATH+ protocol if ivermectin could just be discarded. They'll say no. https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/FLCCC-Alliance-MATHplus-Protocol-ENGLISH.pdf https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/F...
    - unanswered 5y ago
      But the only expert opinions they cite are: > Pfizer’s drug has protease inhibitor activity like ivermectin, but they are a very different kettle of fish on a variety of levels and > Dr Walter explained that PF-07321332 is a “direct acting antiviral drug”, while ivermectin “has multiple mechanisms of action on animal and human cells as well as some serendipitous antiviral activity”. This sounds much more like "yes, but" to me than "false". And indeed, the rating given is not "false" but "Missing context". The headline is certainly accurate (ivermectin is not the same drug as Pfizermectin) but also fake news in that it is a strawman; no one has claimed that they are literally the same drug. The interesting claim, if clearly stated, is "The mechanism of action of Pfizermectin for treating COVID-19 is as a protease inhibitor. Ivermectin is, among other antiparisitic effects which are usually more interesting, also a protease inhibitor." That claim is validated by the evidence given in the fact-check. Moreover it's worth calling out a known lie in the fact-check (which is included entirely gratuitously as it doesn't have anything to do with the headline or the verdict or even my "interesting claim" above): "some of [the mechanisms of action of Ivermectin] could have unwanted, even dangerous side effects." Ivermectin is on the WHO list of essential medicines and is considered extremely safe, with just one known complication related to a particular parasitic infection IIRC. I can only imagine that the reporter, having not gotten any definitive proof for the desired 'false' verdict from Dr Walter, pushed and prodded until eliciting this absurd and false but politically expedient statement.
      - gardnr 5y ago
        I wonder how Dr Walter would describe the difference between "animal and human cells". The statement makes it sound like he's a Young Earth creationist. One criticism[1] of the above linked study, the one that states Ivermectin acts as a 3CL protease inhibitor, is that it uses an "in silico approach" (computer simulation). The way that we know PF-07321332 is a 3CL protease inhibitor is via an "in silico approach". It's important to note that the dosage of Ivermectin required to act as a protease inhibitor would be way above the accepted levels for human use. Even still, this "animal/horse drug" rhetoric along with asymmetric acceptance of evidence is what lead me to want to understand more about the ivermectin controversy. It smells more like propaganda than science. Then, the sheer number of studies showing positive outcomes made it hard for me to accept that all the science was bad. Astral Codex did a great job of explaining why the studies were flawed. [1]: https://www.factcheck.org/2021/10/scicheck-merck-pfizer-covid-19-antivirals-different-from-ivermectin/ https://www.factcheck.org/2021/10/scicheck-merck-pfizer-covi...

How similar to Ivermectin is the new Pfizer covid drug?

by Tycho 5y ago

How similar to Ivermectin is the new Pfizer covid drug?

Paxlovid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PF-07321332 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PF-07321332 protease inhibitor; Ivermectin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin binds to chloride channels and is a nerve poison for invertebrates. The molecular layouts look completely different.

gardnr 5y ago
This study shows Ivermectin functions as a protease inhibitor https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/ Here is the fact check evaluation from Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-pfizer-idUSL1N2R11T5 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-pfizer...
- pjc50 5y ago
  Yes, and that fact check evaluates to "false"?
  - gardnr 5y ago
    Yeah. Reuters says it’s false. John Campbell, a retired nurse with a PhD in philosophy was fact checked on it as well. He has a response video: https://youtu.be/ObTAOvgd_JE https://youtu.be/ObTAOvgd_JE It doesn’t really matter given that ivermectin is not effective.
    - HamburgerEmoji 5y ago
      > It doesn’t really matter given that ivermectin is not effective. Unfortunately, you're in disagreement with doctors who have personally saved thousands of lives. Ask the people who came up with the MATH+ protocol if ivermectin could just be discarded. They'll say no. https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/FLCCC-Alliance-MATHplus-Protocol-ENGLISH.pdf https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/F...
  - unanswered 5y ago
    But the only expert opinions they cite are: > Pfizer’s drug has protease inhibitor activity like ivermectin, but they are a very different kettle of fish on a variety of levels and > Dr Walter explained that PF-07321332 is a “direct acting antiviral drug”, while ivermectin “has multiple mechanisms of action on animal and human cells as well as some serendipitous antiviral activity”. This sounds much more like "yes, but" to me than "false". And indeed, the rating given is not "false" but "Missing context". The headline is certainly accurate (ivermectin is not the same drug as Pfizermectin) but also fake news in that it is a strawman; no one has claimed that they are literally the same drug. The interesting claim, if clearly stated, is "The mechanism of action of Pfizermectin for treating COVID-19 is as a protease inhibitor. Ivermectin is, among other antiparisitic effects which are usually more interesting, also a protease inhibitor." That claim is validated by the evidence given in the fact-check. Moreover it's worth calling out a known lie in the fact-check (which is included entirely gratuitously as it doesn't have anything to do with the headline or the verdict or even my "interesting claim" above): "some of [the mechanisms of action of Ivermectin] could have unwanted, even dangerous side effects." Ivermectin is on the WHO list of essential medicines and is considered extremely safe, with just one known complication related to a particular parasitic infection IIRC. I can only imagine that the reporter, having not gotten any definitive proof for the desired 'false' verdict from Dr Walter, pushed and prodded until eliciting this absurd and false but politically expedient statement.
    - gardnr 5y ago
      I wonder how Dr Walter would describe the difference between "animal and human cells". The statement makes it sound like he's a Young Earth creationist. One criticism[1] of the above linked study, the one that states Ivermectin acts as a 3CL protease inhibitor, is that it uses an "in silico approach" (computer simulation). The way that we know PF-07321332 is a 3CL protease inhibitor is via an "in silico approach". It's important to note that the dosage of Ivermectin required to act as a protease inhibitor would be way above the accepted levels for human use. Even still, this "animal/horse drug" rhetoric along with asymmetric acceptance of evidence is what lead me to want to understand more about the ivermectin controversy. It smells more like propaganda than science. Then, the sheer number of studies showing positive outcomes made it hard for me to accept that all the science was bad. Astral Codex did a great job of explaining why the studies were flawed. [1]: https://www.factcheck.org/2021/10/scicheck-merck-pfizer-covid-19-antivirals-different-from-ivermectin/ https://www.factcheck.org/2021/10/scicheck-merck-pfizer-covi...