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This is tangential, but I tried watching it with a girlfriend relatively recently and found that I couldn't comfortably watch it with her. The first episode alo

by 63 5y ago

This is tangential, but I tried watching it with a girlfriend relatively recently and found that I couldn't comfortably watch it with her. The first episode alone has all these not-so-subtle sexist jokes. I used to watch it a lot when I was younger, but I guess I just didn't notice back then. Certainly there are parts of the show that are endearing, but I just wasn't comfortable watching it casually with company and decided to change the show.

ipaddr 5y ago
Good comedy was always uncomfortable. Saying something everyone was thinking but may be taboo. Comedy shines a light on a dark truth. Being uncomfortable isn't acceptable in 2021.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  Good comedy has to be funny— that’s all good comedy has to do. It’s not that deep. If it makes you uncomfortable that’s a side thing, but first and foremost good comedy is funny. I read the post as saying that the jokes weren’t funny anymore in the context of why in-jokes with my pals aren’t funny to a total stranger.
  - moate 5y ago
    This is something I think a lot of people fail to understand about comedy: As long as it's funny, it's good. That's it. Doesn't matter how offensive, dirty, clean, esoteric, or even "obvious" the joke is. As long as it's funny, it's a good joke. I think a lot of big name comics think they're "owed" the laughs, and some people think that their personal taste is the only comedy. It's all subjective, but if you get the laugh, that's the only thing that matters in comedy.
    - owlninja 5y ago
      I enjoy watching Seinfeld's "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee" to really understand what makes a comic, and you pretty much described what they all say. They just are trying to get a laugh 24x7. They all have different styles but the goal is the same. It really made me appreciate different types of comedians and that most of the successful ones really have a love for their craft.
      - gfdsagwgrg 5y ago
        > you pretty much described what they all say Not true. Ricky Gervais makes the case that making animal jokes (e.g. where you tell a funny story, but the characters are animals having people-like problems) is too easy and so doesn't count as much. (Actually, I'm not sure he said this on Comedians in Cars, or in a different show) Maybe comedians are people too and have varied points of view on comedy gasp
- follower 5y ago
  Speaking of comedy: the only people to whom being uncomfortable isn't acceptable in 2021 is...cis het white men. There's a difference between feeling uncomfortable because someone is being misogynistic & feeling uncomfortable because of the realisation that--regardless of specifics of personal situation--anyone in that demographic benefits from systems of oppression. You're reading this in part because not everyone in your life told you that you should seek an interest outside of technology & entrepreneurship to which you would be "better suited". Disclaimer: Have stood on a stage with a microphone and made a paying audience laugh.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    I'm trying to understand what all this means or what we can do with it. Are you saying that nobody who is not a straight, not trans, white, male considers being uncomfortable to be unacceptable? What data are you using to support this claim?
- ketzo 5y ago
  I'm sorry to sound antagonistic, but that is a deeply lazy take. It is so incredibly disrespectful of your fellow human to assume that "uncomfortable = illegitimate" by default, which is absolutely what your comment does. Seinfeld absolutely has a lot of pretty blatantly sexist humor that would, sure, not be acceptable on TV today, but was also shitty, then. We just didn't do a particularly job of caring about it. > Being uncomfortable isn't acceptable in 2021. Says who? Watch Squid Game. Watch Parasite. Watch... I dunno, Big Mouth. These are just random things that come to mind, but they're huge, mainstream pieces of media that are actively challenging to watch and use that uncomfortable feeling to an end, without punching down.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    At what point did you feel uncomfortable during squid game or parasite? His relative was selfish and some mild gore. Has a thriller / horror pace. But I never felt uncomfortable or questioned my humanity or my choices. If those are the examples you have to offer you make my point stronger. Where is the 2021 crying game? Dave Chappelle: Sticks & Stones made people uncomfortable in 2021. Have you seen it, most popular comedy standup special on netflix? Do you consider it as shitty of Seinfeld?
willcipriano 5y ago
This is interesting to me as Jerry Seinfeld's entire thing is that he is a clean comedian.
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  That’s not his entire thing.
- js2 5y ago
  Dolores?
  - gfdsagwgrg 5y ago
    Mulva?
- shrikant 5y ago
  Sure, "clean" as in doesn't do toilet/gross-out/sex humour, but a lot of his observational bits are "have you ever noticed how women are different from men in this way?"-type comparisons. I can see how someone might find that kind of material sexist, especially if they've only encountered a few episodes where it seems like he's basically saying women are worse than men. Personally, I don't have a problem with it because over lots and lots of episodes, whether he's punching down at men or women balances out. I'm not sure if the writers made a conscious choice to make it that way after maybe some initial criticism as I never followed the show when it was on air originally.
jackemcpherson 5y ago
Used to watch re-runs of it all the time but I tried re-watching it on Netflix and found it really sticks out how almost every major character on the show is white, and any time a non-white character appears they really ramp up their ethnic characteristics to an uncomfortable degree. Particularly an episode where Jerry inadvertently makes several racist remarks in front of a Native American character while the laugh track is going nuts just left me speechless. You have to measure it with the standards of that time, but this kind of obliviousness to any kind of ethnic character is just off-putting now.
- poszlem 5y ago
  I don't know, maybe it's an American thing, but to a person from Europe this reads like an attempt at parody. I cannot believe one can watch Seinfeld (likely one of the most benign tv shows there are) and somehow find it problematic. I think we really reached a point when a big part of American culture (especially the constant racialization of everything) is not understandable to an average person from another country.
  - jackemcpherson 5y ago
    First off, I'm not an American. To your point about the show, watch the clip yourself [0] and see how you feel. To me, this plays in pretty bad taste. I understand that this episode was made 28 years ago and was probably fairly on par with attitudes at the time, but just like our attitudes to race have changed so has my attitude to comedy. Watching this today I react with cringe rather than laughing anywhere near as hard as the laugh track seems to imply I should be. I'm also not singling out one particular episode, there are other examples of this. Another episode featuring a Pakistani-American character called "Babhu" also plays poorly to me today [1]. If you can watch these clips and think they're still benign then that's ok, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I don't think you can watch them and still find it incomprehensible why someone might have an issue with them. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGwaupBdiSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGwaupBdiSU [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPH5OhXC1A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPH5OhXC1A
poszlem 5y ago
Just to confirm I read it right. You found that you couldn't comfortably watch Seinfeld with your girlfriend? Was that because she was uncomfortable watching it which made you uncomfortable too or you assumed that she would be offended and that's why it was uncomfortable to you?
- 63 5y ago
  She was ostensibly fine with it, but it made me feel weird. It felt like I was endorsing the kinds of thought patterns represented. I knew she wouldn't be offended per se, but I didn't want her to get the wrong impression of me, and I also don't want to be a person who acts like that's normal for my own sake. There are 100% appropriate contexts to watch that and know that it's antiquated and that nobody present is endorsing it, but I had put it on intentionally because I wanted something light, and at that point it started getting too stressful.
  - easytiger 5y ago
    Do you mind if I ask how old you are? Just to give me some context
    - 63 5y ago
      I believe I was 19 at the time.
      - easytiger 5y ago
        Thanks
knownjorbist 5y ago
Part of the issue might be starting with the first episode. All the great 90s TV shows generally 'gelled' as a show in their late 1st/2nd seasons.
sofixa 5y ago
I had a similar feeling when we recently started watching The Office (US version) with my girlfriend. Lots of cringy sexist jokes in the beginning. I know they're made by the "bad" guys, and are a sign of their "badness", not something celebrated, but it's still pretty cringy. We're still binging it though, it wasn't a deal breaker.

by 63 5y ago

ipaddr 5y ago

Good comedy was always uncomfortable. Saying something everyone was thinking but may be taboo. Comedy shines a light on a dark truth. Being uncomfortable isn't acceptable in 2021.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
Good comedy has to be funny— that’s all good comedy has to do. It’s not that deep. If it makes you uncomfortable that’s a side thing, but first and foremost good comedy is funny. I read the post as saying that the jokes weren’t funny anymore in the context of why in-jokes with my pals aren’t funny to a total stranger.
- moate 5y ago
  This is something I think a lot of people fail to understand about comedy: As long as it's funny, it's good. That's it. Doesn't matter how offensive, dirty, clean, esoteric, or even "obvious" the joke is. As long as it's funny, it's a good joke. I think a lot of big name comics think they're "owed" the laughs, and some people think that their personal taste is the only comedy. It's all subjective, but if you get the laugh, that's the only thing that matters in comedy.
  - owlninja 5y ago
    I enjoy watching Seinfeld's "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee" to really understand what makes a comic, and you pretty much described what they all say. They just are trying to get a laugh 24x7. They all have different styles but the goal is the same. It really made me appreciate different types of comedians and that most of the successful ones really have a love for their craft.
    - gfdsagwgrg 5y ago
      > you pretty much described what they all say Not true. Ricky Gervais makes the case that making animal jokes (e.g. where you tell a funny story, but the characters are animals having people-like problems) is too easy and so doesn't count as much. (Actually, I'm not sure he said this on Comedians in Cars, or in a different show) Maybe comedians are people too and have varied points of view on comedy gasp
follower 5y ago
Speaking of comedy: the only people to whom being uncomfortable isn't acceptable in 2021 is...cis het white men. There's a difference between feeling uncomfortable because someone is being misogynistic & feeling uncomfortable because of the realisation that--regardless of specifics of personal situation--anyone in that demographic benefits from systems of oppression. You're reading this in part because not everyone in your life told you that you should seek an interest outside of technology & entrepreneurship to which you would be "better suited". Disclaimer: Have stood on a stage with a microphone and made a paying audience laugh.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  I'm trying to understand what all this means or what we can do with it. Are you saying that nobody who is not a straight, not trans, white, male considers being uncomfortable to be unacceptable? What data are you using to support this claim?
ketzo 5y ago
I'm sorry to sound antagonistic, but that is a deeply lazy take. It is so incredibly disrespectful of your fellow human to assume that "uncomfortable = illegitimate" by default, which is absolutely what your comment does. Seinfeld absolutely has a lot of pretty blatantly sexist humor that would, sure, not be acceptable on TV today, but was also shitty, then. We just didn't do a particularly job of caring about it. > Being uncomfortable isn't acceptable in 2021. Says who? Watch Squid Game. Watch Parasite. Watch... I dunno, Big Mouth. These are just random things that come to mind, but they're huge, mainstream pieces of media that are actively challenging to watch and use that uncomfortable feeling to an end, without punching down.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  At what point did you feel uncomfortable during squid game or parasite? His relative was selfish and some mild gore. Has a thriller / horror pace. But I never felt uncomfortable or questioned my humanity or my choices. If those are the examples you have to offer you make my point stronger. Where is the 2021 crying game? Dave Chappelle: Sticks & Stones made people uncomfortable in 2021. Have you seen it, most popular comedy standup special on netflix? Do you consider it as shitty of Seinfeld?

willcipriano 5y ago

This is interesting to me as Jerry Seinfeld's entire thing is that he is a clean comedian.

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
That’s not his entire thing.
js2 5y ago
Dolores?
- gfdsagwgrg 5y ago
  Mulva?
shrikant 5y ago
Sure, "clean" as in doesn't do toilet/gross-out/sex humour, but a lot of his observational bits are "have you ever noticed how women are different from men in this way?"-type comparisons. I can see how someone might find that kind of material sexist, especially if they've only encountered a few episodes where it seems like he's basically saying women are worse than men. Personally, I don't have a problem with it because over lots and lots of episodes, whether he's punching down at men or women balances out. I'm not sure if the writers made a conscious choice to make it that way after maybe some initial criticism as I never followed the show when it was on air originally.

jackemcpherson 5y ago

Used to watch re-runs of it all the time but I tried re-watching it on Netflix and found it really sticks out how almost every major character on the show is white, and any time a non-white character appears they really ramp up their ethnic characteristics to an uncomfortable degree. Particularly an episode where Jerry inadvertently makes several racist remarks in front of a Native American character while the laugh track is going nuts just left me speechless. You have to measure it with the standards of that time, but this kind of obliviousness to any kind of ethnic character is just off-putting now.

poszlem 5y ago
I don't know, maybe it's an American thing, but to a person from Europe this reads like an attempt at parody. I cannot believe one can watch Seinfeld (likely one of the most benign tv shows there are) and somehow find it problematic. I think we really reached a point when a big part of American culture (especially the constant racialization of everything) is not understandable to an average person from another country.
- jackemcpherson 5y ago
  First off, I'm not an American. To your point about the show, watch the clip yourself [0] and see how you feel. To me, this plays in pretty bad taste. I understand that this episode was made 28 years ago and was probably fairly on par with attitudes at the time, but just like our attitudes to race have changed so has my attitude to comedy. Watching this today I react with cringe rather than laughing anywhere near as hard as the laugh track seems to imply I should be. I'm also not singling out one particular episode, there are other examples of this. Another episode featuring a Pakistani-American character called "Babhu" also plays poorly to me today [1]. If you can watch these clips and think they're still benign then that's ok, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I don't think you can watch them and still find it incomprehensible why someone might have an issue with them. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGwaupBdiSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGwaupBdiSU [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPH5OhXC1A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPH5OhXC1A

poszlem 5y ago

Just to confirm I read it right. You found that you couldn't comfortably watch Seinfeld with your girlfriend? Was that because she was uncomfortable watching it which made you uncomfortable too or you assumed that she would be offended and that's why it was uncomfortable to you?

63 5y ago
She was ostensibly fine with it, but it made me feel weird. It felt like I was endorsing the kinds of thought patterns represented. I knew she wouldn't be offended per se, but I didn't want her to get the wrong impression of me, and I also don't want to be a person who acts like that's normal for my own sake. There are 100% appropriate contexts to watch that and know that it's antiquated and that nobody present is endorsing it, but I had put it on intentionally because I wanted something light, and at that point it started getting too stressful.
- easytiger 5y ago
  Do you mind if I ask how old you are? Just to give me some context
  - 63 5y ago
    I believe I was 19 at the time.
    - easytiger 5y ago
      Thanks

knownjorbist 5y ago

Part of the issue might be starting with the first episode. All the great 90s TV shows generally 'gelled' as a show in their late 1st/2nd seasons.

sofixa 5y ago

I had a similar feeling when we recently started watching The Office (US version) with my girlfriend. Lots of cringy sexist jokes in the beginning. I know they're made by the "bad" guys, and are a sign of their "badness", not something celebrated, but it's still pretty cringy. We're still binging it though, it wasn't a deal breaker.