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> This is the core tenet that these skeptics get lost with - the premise that there is no real central value to blockchain technology. It is a lost and shallow

> This is the core tenet that these skeptics get lost with - the premise that there is no real central value to blockchain technology. It is a lost and shallow view made by people who have chosen not to engage or understand what they espouse on. Maybe this person just has too much to lose from change to the status quo, or they choose not to educate themselves (try it) - neither is really valid response if you want to write coherently about something. The claim you are referring to here doesn't say that the technology is valueless. It says that the individual assets - the NFTs, the Bitcoins - are valueless. This is a meaningful distinction, because the premise that a global decentralized unit of exchange is valuable doesn't connect at all with what value the individual coins in that exchange system should have.

jw1224 5y ago
Fiat currency, in essence, is equally valueless. It only has inherent value because enough people agree that it does. Bitcoin is no different (and in fact has several advantages over fiat, giving it further value).
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  You know, I wish that there were a requirement for people to read just one book on economics before blathering about cryptocurrencies. The idea that the US government's power to tax all of American commerce is "valueless" shows that you simply haven't thought for even a few seconds about anything in the field.
  - jw1224 5y ago
    > You know, I wish that there were a requirement for people to read just one book on economics before blathering about cryptocurrencies Well you’ll be pleased to hear I’ve read plenty of books on economics, and hey — I even hold a qualification in it! Just like the “value” inherent in fiat currencies, we grant “power” to the government because enough people agree to do so. This is real value, but nonetheless arbitrarily granted. Hence why I qualified my statement by saying “in essence” — just a bit of vital nuance you happened to miss. Thanks for the chuckle though, I did laugh at the notion that after 9 years in crypto, I “haven’t thought for even a few seconds” about it :)
- addcninblue 5y ago
  Well, not quite. It has inherent value since fiat is guaranteed to be backed by the full faith and credit of the backing nation. That is, by holding fiat, you trust that the country issuing that fiat doesn't default (and will hence guarantee that value). I don't see a similar parallel with crypto, though I'd love to be corrected.
  - jstanley 5y ago
    > you trust that the country issuing that fiat doesn't default Doesn't default on what? A dollar isn't a claim on a percentage of the productive output of the USA, it's just a dollar. If dollars aren't worth anything, it's not worth anything.
    - labster 5y ago
      Dollars do have inherent value, because I need them to keep the government from throwing me in prison for tax evasion. That is a very useful property.
      - koonsolo 5y ago
        This is such a stupid argument that keeps being repeated on HN. People are not obliged to be paid in dollars. This means people could decide to be paid exclusively in some cryptocurrency. So government collects taxes in dollars... what are they going to buy with that?
        labster 5y ago
        If the argument keeps being repeated it must have inherent value.
      - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
        That's not inherent value, that's a social contract.
  - miracle2k 5y ago
cslarson 5y ago
you are stuck on NFTs and Bitcoin then. many would agree that these don't hold fundamental value and worth debate. but does usdc on Ethereum have value - probably if you pay taxes. does a token representing a share of a house, or a leverage protocol that's making bank? the token that makes that all possible (ETH), does it now have value because it enables things of value? yes! anyone can publish a website or a blog post but not all the websites or blog posts are valuable. this does not invalidate the web. the signal/noise simply changes because now it is permissionless and low cost.
- billjings 5y ago
  USDC only has value because it's pegged to a non crypto asset. Is there a crypto asset with its own clear valuation? And Eth - it is easy to say that it should have value. But what value should it have? What's my investment model for eth? As I said in my original comment, the value of the whole Ethereum system doesn't necessarily make Eth valuable. Beachfront property is extremely valuable, but that doesn't make sand a good investment.

jw1224 5y ago

Fiat currency, in essence, is equally valueless. It only has inherent value because enough people agree that it does. Bitcoin is no different (and in fact has several advantages over fiat, giving it further value).

TomSwirly 5y ago
You know, I wish that there were a requirement for people to read just one book on economics before blathering about cryptocurrencies. The idea that the US government's power to tax all of American commerce is "valueless" shows that you simply haven't thought for even a few seconds about anything in the field.
- jw1224 5y ago
  > You know, I wish that there were a requirement for people to read just one book on economics before blathering about cryptocurrencies Well you’ll be pleased to hear I’ve read plenty of books on economics, and hey — I even hold a qualification in it! Just like the “value” inherent in fiat currencies, we grant “power” to the government because enough people agree to do so. This is real value, but nonetheless arbitrarily granted. Hence why I qualified my statement by saying “in essence” — just a bit of vital nuance you happened to miss. Thanks for the chuckle though, I did laugh at the notion that after 9 years in crypto, I “haven’t thought for even a few seconds” about it :)
addcninblue 5y ago
Well, not quite. It has inherent value since fiat is guaranteed to be backed by the full faith and credit of the backing nation. That is, by holding fiat, you trust that the country issuing that fiat doesn't default (and will hence guarantee that value). I don't see a similar parallel with crypto, though I'd love to be corrected.
- jstanley 5y ago
  > you trust that the country issuing that fiat doesn't default Doesn't default on what? A dollar isn't a claim on a percentage of the productive output of the USA, it's just a dollar. If dollars aren't worth anything, it's not worth anything.
  - labster 5y ago
    Dollars do have inherent value, because I need them to keep the government from throwing me in prison for tax evasion. That is a very useful property.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      This is such a stupid argument that keeps being repeated on HN. People are not obliged to be paid in dollars. This means people could decide to be paid exclusively in some cryptocurrency. So government collects taxes in dollars... what are they going to buy with that?
      - labster 5y ago
        If the argument keeps being repeated it must have inherent value.
    - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
      That's not inherent value, that's a social contract.
- miracle2k 5y ago

cslarson 5y ago

you are stuck on NFTs and Bitcoin then. many would agree that these don't hold fundamental value and worth debate. but does usdc on Ethereum have value - probably if you pay taxes. does a token representing a share of a house, or a leverage protocol that's making bank? the token that makes that all possible (ETH), does it now have value because it enables things of value? yes! anyone can publish a website or a blog post but not all the websites or blog posts are valuable. this does not invalidate the web. the signal/noise simply changes because now it is permissionless and low cost.

billjings 5y ago
USDC only has value because it's pegged to a non crypto asset. Is there a crypto asset with its own clear valuation? And Eth - it is easy to say that it should have value. But what value should it have? What's my investment model for eth? As I said in my original comment, the value of the whole Ethereum system doesn't necessarily make Eth valuable. Beachfront property is extremely valuable, but that doesn't make sand a good investment.