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Greenfield – The In-Browser Wayland Compositor

71 points by cunidev 5y ago

hbogert 5y ago
After 15y of Linux I have pretty good understanding of the kernel subsystems. If I hit an issue I have pretty good first hunch on where to look. But the graphical stack, it's just so opaque. DRM, mesa, X and all its extensions and userspace drivers, Wayland and its compositors, DRI, RADV. Is there any good read or a video which ties all these concepts together?
- evmar 5y ago
  Missing the most recent developments but still mostly accurate: http://neugierig.org/software/blog/2011/11/graphics-stack.html http://neugierig.org/software/blog/2011/11/graphics-stack.ht...
ComputerGuru 5y ago
This is very nice to see, as someone that hasn’t made the Wayland jump for both pragmatic and philosophical reasons. It looks like it needs more security and locking down, but that’s doable with existing web tech.
- mcbuilder 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm in the same boat in that I haven't made the jump. Wayland feels very wild west at the moment, but full of cool tech. It's great that we have so much choice in Linux land, you can be just as productive with a "stable" system, or have some fun and switch to experimental or seldom used solutions
- zubnix 5y ago
  Absolutely, that’s why I am integrating it with kubernetes so each app is locked down and containerised while you as a user don’t even notice it.
CyberRabbi 5y ago
To the authors, is it possible to have a “local mode” that doesn’t use gstreamer to encode the application frame from the server to the client and instead passes a gpu memory reference from the application to the browser? Like the way wayland compositors generally work. There must be some GL extension that can enable that functionality.
- zubnix 5y ago
  Not possible, webgl is sandboxed and doesn’t expose the required egl extension. It might be possible if you’d port it to deno and use some native code perhaps(?)
modeless 5y ago
Every web project ought to have a hosted demo, but I couldn't find one here.
- billconan 5y ago
  because it is costly to scale a video streaming app.
  - modeless 5y ago
    Seems like it ought to be possible to run the client in the browser too and do everything locally for a demo.
- zubnix 5y ago
  There used to be one for about half a year I believe, but I found 280 dollars a month (gpu cloud is crazy expensive) too costly for just a demo.
zubnix 5y ago
Author here. If you want to know a bit more about the history of greenfield, I’ve written a bit about it on twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/FriedChicken/status/1420671685485867014 https://mobile.twitter.com/FriedChicken/status/1420671685485...
- macinjosh 5y ago
  Does it run games? :)
  - zubnix 5y ago
    Not tested but it could although rather slowly as currently the proxy compositor does not expose OpenGL capabilities for doing zero copy application buffer passing. With enough time you could completely integrate it with steam though…
m33k44 5y ago
> It can run native Wayland applications remotely Have we come full circle? Also, similar interesting, but old, project is: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/tree/master/gdk/broadway https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/tree/master/gdk/broadway
- FreeFull 5y ago
  One difference is that while broadway only works with GTK programs, Greenfield theoretically should work with any Wayland-supporting program (including apps using GTK 3 or 4). I wonder what options there are for running an X11 server in a browser..
  - bitwize 5y ago
    There was an X initiative, also called Broadway, to remote X applications over relatively slow internet links. I seem to recall a browser plugin X server as part of this.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    > I wonder what options there are for running an X11 server in a browser.. Xpra can do something like that, or you can run a headless X server with x11vnc, or just Xvnc, and then front it with Apache Guacamole or such.
  - funcDropShadow 5y ago
    Wasn't getting rid of the network transparency the proclaimed reason to switch from X to Wayland?
    - solarkraft 5y ago
      No, not at all. It was just a FUD argument.
charwalker 5y ago
Greenfield is an existing tech buzzword. Does this leverage the same mentality or just a name?
- zubnix 5y ago
  Greenfield is a city in Massachusetts, United States. Just like Wayland.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    > Just like Wayland Oh my god I didn't know that's where that came from! As a mass-hole, that's cool to learn about the origin. > Greenfield is a city in Massachusetts Not the first city I'd pick for a project. Maynard, Weston, Wellesley all are near Wayland and seem less connected to existing buzzwords. Edit: No criticism of the project though, seems pretty cool! Don't want to come off too negative about the name. This is a really cool project, and I can image some fun uses for it in the future.
    - YtvwlD 5y ago
      > Maynard, Weston, Wellesley all are near Wayland and seem less connected to existing buzzwords. Weston already exists and is a Wayland compositor. :)
danielEM 5y ago
Termux for android is desperate to see some good and fast wayland compositor implementation
ahachete 5y ago
Hi. I find the project very cool and interesting. Good job! I wanted to comment on what you state in the FAQ [1] about the license: "_We realize this is quite a restrictive license_". I think this is not correct, nor a good thing. It's more than fine that you use this license and plan to add commercial licensing. But AGPLv3 is an open source license, which provides all the freedoms of the free software. This, categorizing it as "restrictive" sounds almost the opposite of what the license is. What the license actually does is to ensure that the software will keep the freedoms guaranteed by its license on many circumstances, whereas those freedoms could be removed on proprietary forks if the license where BSD, Apache2 or similar licenses. Not advocating for or against any license, but I believe the language used to speak about the license is not correct. [1]: https://www.greenfield.app/faq https://www.greenfield.app/faq

71 points by cunidev 5y ago

After 15y of Linux I have pretty good understanding of the kernel subsystems. If I hit an issue I have pretty good first hunch on where to look. But the graphical stack, it's just so opaque. DRM, mesa, X and all its extensions and userspace drivers, Wayland and its compositors, DRI, RADV. Is there any good read or a video which ties all these concepts together?

evmar 5y ago
Missing the most recent developments but still mostly accurate: http://neugierig.org/software/blog/2011/11/graphics-stack.html http://neugierig.org/software/blog/2011/11/graphics-stack.ht...

ComputerGuru 5y ago

This is very nice to see, as someone that hasn’t made the Wayland jump for both pragmatic and philosophical reasons. It looks like it needs more security and locking down, but that’s doable with existing web tech.

mcbuilder 5y ago
Yeah, I'm in the same boat in that I haven't made the jump. Wayland feels very wild west at the moment, but full of cool tech. It's great that we have so much choice in Linux land, you can be just as productive with a "stable" system, or have some fun and switch to experimental or seldom used solutions
zubnix 5y ago
Absolutely, that’s why I am integrating it with kubernetes so each app is locked down and containerised while you as a user don’t even notice it.

CyberRabbi 5y ago

To the authors, is it possible to have a “local mode” that doesn’t use gstreamer to encode the application frame from the server to the client and instead passes a gpu memory reference from the application to the browser? Like the way wayland compositors generally work. There must be some GL extension that can enable that functionality.

zubnix 5y ago
Not possible, webgl is sandboxed and doesn’t expose the required egl extension. It might be possible if you’d port it to deno and use some native code perhaps(?)

modeless 5y ago

Every web project ought to have a hosted demo, but I couldn't find one here.

billconan 5y ago
because it is costly to scale a video streaming app.
- modeless 5y ago
  Seems like it ought to be possible to run the client in the browser too and do everything locally for a demo.
zubnix 5y ago
There used to be one for about half a year I believe, but I found 280 dollars a month (gpu cloud is crazy expensive) too costly for just a demo.

zubnix 5y ago

Author here. If you want to know a bit more about the history of greenfield, I’ve written a bit about it on twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/FriedChicken/status/1420671685485867014 https://mobile.twitter.com/FriedChicken/status/1420671685485...

macinjosh 5y ago
Does it run games? :)
- zubnix 5y ago
  Not tested but it could although rather slowly as currently the proxy compositor does not expose OpenGL capabilities for doing zero copy application buffer passing. With enough time you could completely integrate it with steam though…

m33k44 5y ago

> It can run native Wayland applications remotely Have we come full circle? Also, similar interesting, but old, project is: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/tree/master/gdk/broadway https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/tree/master/gdk/broadway

FreeFull 5y ago
One difference is that while broadway only works with GTK programs, Greenfield theoretically should work with any Wayland-supporting program (including apps using GTK 3 or 4). I wonder what options there are for running an X11 server in a browser..
- bitwize 5y ago
  There was an X initiative, also called Broadway, to remote X applications over relatively slow internet links. I seem to recall a browser plugin X server as part of this.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > I wonder what options there are for running an X11 server in a browser.. Xpra can do something like that, or you can run a headless X server with x11vnc, or just Xvnc, and then front it with Apache Guacamole or such.
- funcDropShadow 5y ago
  Wasn't getting rid of the network transparency the proclaimed reason to switch from X to Wayland?
  - solarkraft 5y ago
    No, not at all. It was just a FUD argument.

charwalker 5y ago

Greenfield is an existing tech buzzword. Does this leverage the same mentality or just a name?

zubnix 5y ago
Greenfield is a city in Massachusetts, United States. Just like Wayland.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > Just like Wayland Oh my god I didn't know that's where that came from! As a mass-hole, that's cool to learn about the origin. > Greenfield is a city in Massachusetts Not the first city I'd pick for a project. Maynard, Weston, Wellesley all are near Wayland and seem less connected to existing buzzwords. Edit: No criticism of the project though, seems pretty cool! Don't want to come off too negative about the name. This is a really cool project, and I can image some fun uses for it in the future.
  - YtvwlD 5y ago
    > Maynard, Weston, Wellesley all are near Wayland and seem less connected to existing buzzwords. Weston already exists and is a Wayland compositor. :)

danielEM 5y ago

Termux for android is desperate to see some good and fast wayland compositor implementation

ahachete 5y ago

Hi. I find the project very cool and interesting. Good job! I wanted to comment on what you state in the FAQ [1] about the license: "_We realize this is quite a restrictive license_". I think this is not correct, nor a good thing. It's more than fine that you use this license and plan to add commercial licensing. But AGPLv3 is an open source license, which provides all the freedoms of the free software. This, categorizing it as "restrictive" sounds almost the opposite of what the license is. What the license actually does is to ensure that the software will keep the freedoms guaranteed by its license on many circumstances, whereas those freedoms could be removed on proprietary forks if the license where BSD, Apache2 or similar licenses. Not advocating for or against any license, but I believe the language used to speak about the license is not correct. [1]: https://www.greenfield.app/faq https://www.greenfield.app/faq