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"Freedom of speech is overrated, I don't agree with it as a general principle"... It's a minority but the people who actually say this are just promoting increa

"Freedom of speech is overrated, I don't agree with it as a general principle"... It's a minority but the people who actually say this are just promoting increased government control of citizenry. Either they are naive or that's what they want.

laurent92 5y ago
They are delusional. I confronted my father about not being in favor of basic democratic principles (67, I’m 40), he maintained he wanted freedom of speech until, after a few targetted questions from myself, he admitted to having limits to it. Same for the right to vote, which he defends fiercely, except for the people who are under influence, foreign or otherwise. Such horrible people maintain a doublespeak even in their own mind. We’ve lost. We’ve lost.
- yuliyp 5y ago
  Do you really think your father is a horrible person because some of the ideas in his head might be wrong, or come from a different set of values than you? Are all of your own views self-consistent? Have you ever come to a conclusion, and later changed your views after thinking further or getting new evidence, or from discussing them further? I also find myself disagreeing with my father's politics often. I do compartmentalize it into a judgment of his political views, not my view on him as a person.
  - golemotron 5y ago
    Good practice. It's also good to make note of the differences you and your father have politically and then compare then to those of your children (or that age cohort if you don't have children) when you are your father's age. What we consider important, and why, change a lot over our lifetimes.
  - laurent92 5y ago
    Yes, of course. He constantly lies to hide his real political opinions: He obviously fights for women to succeed, he favors my sisters every time he can, he’s a staunch feminist, but he doesn’t want to lose his son. He puts a visible fat thumb on the balance in favor of women, and he’s surprised that I point out his fat thumb resting on the balance. It’s sad, I’m sad, he’s sad, but he keeps doing it, and doesn’t want to discuss it. To answer your question, I have often changed my mind in my life. Precisely because I’ve always engaged with opponents, had animated debates, and sometimes encompassed their point of view. I don’t understand how one can stay stuck on a demonstrably false information, and be so mean about it that you wouldn’t want it undemonstrated. But I feel like 10-20% of the Gen Z generation has the same problem dealing with their parents consuming fake news.
    - foxhop 5y ago
      Thanks for your story, I try not to use "generations" anymore. People are too complicated for that chaotically broken system created by media companies. I never fit any generational trope and I really don't know anyone who has. I don't think we lost, I think some people have cognative bias and feminism has been hijacked in recent years by "Social Marxists" and mutated the original cause. When a person build's their cognition on a false premise a dysfunctional cognitive bias is formed. The individual will need to grow out of it themself, but it's hard to do because it requires breaking a bit of ones ego and facing ones shadow. If you want to talk more hit me up, links in profile.
- poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
  Well every family member and person I've ever gotten to know well enough where we talk politics, believe that the state naturally seeks to increase its power over time, so that people should be skeptical of the state. As cliche as it is to bring up, this is what the American founding fathers talked extensively about. Freedom of speech is the fundamental way that people can push back when governments do this, inevitably as they try to, as every state in every historical period has tried to. Again, they're either naive or that's what they want and should be honest about it.
  - freejazz 5y ago
    The founders also were aware that the only freedom of speech that you have is from the gov't restricting your speech.
    - PrincessJess 5y ago
      They didn't account for a corporatocracy.
      - freejazz 5y ago
        Is this an argument? Do you think more people had more access to publishing in their time compared to today? I'm really struggling to understand why you think you are making a slam-dunk argument and that you haven't actually said anything of substance isn't helping me get there.
    - remarkEon 5y ago
      This is absolutely not at clear cut as you are describing it. They were well aware that public opinion generally understood is what is supposed to bound government action. I don't have all the Federalist references handy atm, but it is not the case that they would have said "meh if a private corporation does it it's okay". As will all things with those folks it's considerably more nuanced than that.
      - freejazz 5y ago

laurent92 5y ago

They are delusional. I confronted my father about not being in favor of basic democratic principles (67, I’m 40), he maintained he wanted freedom of speech until, after a few targetted questions from myself, he admitted to having limits to it. Same for the right to vote, which he defends fiercely, except for the people who are under influence, foreign or otherwise. Such horrible people maintain a doublespeak even in their own mind. We’ve lost. We’ve lost.

yuliyp 5y ago
Do you really think your father is a horrible person because some of the ideas in his head might be wrong, or come from a different set of values than you? Are all of your own views self-consistent? Have you ever come to a conclusion, and later changed your views after thinking further or getting new evidence, or from discussing them further? I also find myself disagreeing with my father's politics often. I do compartmentalize it into a judgment of his political views, not my view on him as a person.
- golemotron 5y ago
  Good practice. It's also good to make note of the differences you and your father have politically and then compare then to those of your children (or that age cohort if you don't have children) when you are your father's age. What we consider important, and why, change a lot over our lifetimes.
- laurent92 5y ago
  Yes, of course. He constantly lies to hide his real political opinions: He obviously fights for women to succeed, he favors my sisters every time he can, he’s a staunch feminist, but he doesn’t want to lose his son. He puts a visible fat thumb on the balance in favor of women, and he’s surprised that I point out his fat thumb resting on the balance. It’s sad, I’m sad, he’s sad, but he keeps doing it, and doesn’t want to discuss it. To answer your question, I have often changed my mind in my life. Precisely because I’ve always engaged with opponents, had animated debates, and sometimes encompassed their point of view. I don’t understand how one can stay stuck on a demonstrably false information, and be so mean about it that you wouldn’t want it undemonstrated. But I feel like 10-20% of the Gen Z generation has the same problem dealing with their parents consuming fake news.
  - foxhop 5y ago
    Thanks for your story, I try not to use "generations" anymore. People are too complicated for that chaotically broken system created by media companies. I never fit any generational trope and I really don't know anyone who has. I don't think we lost, I think some people have cognative bias and feminism has been hijacked in recent years by "Social Marxists" and mutated the original cause. When a person build's their cognition on a false premise a dysfunctional cognitive bias is formed. The individual will need to grow out of it themself, but it's hard to do because it requires breaking a bit of ones ego and facing ones shadow. If you want to talk more hit me up, links in profile.
poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
Well every family member and person I've ever gotten to know well enough where we talk politics, believe that the state naturally seeks to increase its power over time, so that people should be skeptical of the state. As cliche as it is to bring up, this is what the American founding fathers talked extensively about. Freedom of speech is the fundamental way that people can push back when governments do this, inevitably as they try to, as every state in every historical period has tried to. Again, they're either naive or that's what they want and should be honest about it.
- freejazz 5y ago
  The founders also were aware that the only freedom of speech that you have is from the gov't restricting your speech.
  - PrincessJess 5y ago
    They didn't account for a corporatocracy.
    - freejazz 5y ago
      Is this an argument? Do you think more people had more access to publishing in their time compared to today? I'm really struggling to understand why you think you are making a slam-dunk argument and that you haven't actually said anything of substance isn't helping me get there.
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    This is absolutely not at clear cut as you are describing it. They were well aware that public opinion generally understood is what is supposed to bound government action. I don't have all the Federalist references handy atm, but it is not the case that they would have said "meh if a private corporation does it it's okay". As will all things with those folks it's considerably more nuanced than that.
    - freejazz 5y ago