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What’s the thinking behind it? What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? Do they think they’ll be raking in money when they’re the last petrol engine

What’s the thinking behind it? What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? Do they think they’ll be raking in money when they’re the last petrol engine cars you can get?

CountDrewku 5y ago
It works. Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Maybe they'll get there but there's gonna need to be some massive advances in batteries to be able to go off-road and pull loads like any of those current trucks can.
- culopatin 5y ago
  I see them going to the store and back 99% of the time so a Leaf would do probably.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    That's not your decision to make. Maybe they only go out once a year and actually tow or go off road. It doesn't matter. If I'm going to spend $40k on a vehicle I get what I want. What I and a lot of people want is a vehicle that can do more than grocery store trips in some big urban center. If you're talking about a secondary vehicle I'm all in but a lot of people aren't able to afford a $40k+ secondary EV.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Weird examples - isn't EV actually uniquely well-suited to off-road and towing? Maximum torque at zero-revs? I can't wait to swap my Defender for a full electric variant when Land Rover manage to ship it - partly for the better capability.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    No it's not uniquely suited because the battery life is abysmal. The new Ford Lightning can only make it like 100 miles while towing before it needs to be recharged. Multiple tests with Teslas are the same. When they're loaded down their range is very bad.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      There's pluses and minus. For actual off-road capability it's mostly plus. If you're driving long-distance on a highway then yeah it's a minus... but that's not what trucks are for.
      - CountDrewku 5y ago
        How are they a plus for off-road? No offense but I don't think you understand what makes a good off-road vehicle. Trucks are absolutely used for long distance. Probably more so since they're the top choice for towing recreational vehicles cross country.
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        > How are they a plus for off-road? Huge torque. Quiet operation. Independent and precise wheel control. Don't need to rev them up to get up a slope. > No offense but I don't think you understand what makes a good off-road vehicle. I'm a serving cavalry officer. I do this professionally. What's your qualification?
        CountDrewku 5y ago
        None of that matters if you don't have power.
        pertymcpert 5y ago
        What a cop-out. You were beaten and you know it.
- itisit 5y ago
  The F-150 Lightning, R1T, and Cybertruck all offer a minimum towing capacity of 10,000 pounds. The price is higher and the range is lower than their petrol equivalents, but it is false to say these EV trucks are less capable in going off-road and pulling heavy loads.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    I'm specifically referring to the range. Stopping under 100 miles to recharge your vehicle isn't feasible for most people. Unless you're planning on forcing them to buy a $60k+ vehicle that's worse than what they currently have good luck.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  EVs will take over this role among the first things. Instant torque, no transmission, torque vectoring, no switching gears, no differential.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
meepmorp 5y ago
They bet on hydrogen vs electric cars, and that didn't pay off. They're already good at making ICE vehicles, so rather make up for a huge amount of lost time and effort, it's a bid to keep the current business going.
- genousti 5y ago
  Lets see in 10 years. Id bet hydrogen is one fundamental discovery away from winning
  - meepmorp 5y ago
    Sure, but to be fair, they've probably thought the same thing for years as well.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    The overall efficiency of using electricity to create H2, ship it somewhere, then convert it back into electricity with a fuel cell will never make sense for passenger vehicles. I'm sure we'll find new catalysts and methods to improve electrolysis, but there is a hard upper limit on how good it can get. We're not going to cut the energy requirements in half. Battery prices have cratered over the last decade and continue to drop. The overall efficiency of a BEV is something around 85-90%, whereas FCEV is around 40%. That's a lot of wasted energy for H2 and that will have a big impact on TCO (plus fuel cells remain very expensive after decades of work). I do see H2 fuel cells having a part to play in industries like shipping, forestry, and agriculture where grid connections are either tricky or impossible, but fuel cell passenger vehicles won't ever make sense financially.
    - Hypx_ 5y ago
      There is no hard limit except 100% efficiency (sorta*). As fuel cells are a type of battery they can eventually match li-ion batteries on efficiency. Combined with their ability to capture curtail power on a very large scale and the economics of hydrogen could easily surpass that of the EV. * There is a soft limit at 85%, but that is mainly due to the need to turn liquid water into steam over the entire process. This can be ignored if electrolysis is done on steam instead of liquid water. Also, 85% is close enough to li-ion batteries that very few people will care about it.
tata71 5y ago
> What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? They've absolutely perfected their vehicles as-is, comparatively speaking.

What’s the thinking behind it? What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? Do they think they’ll be raking in money when they’re the last petrol engine cars you can get?

CountDrewku 5y ago

It works. Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Maybe they'll get there but there's gonna need to be some massive advances in batteries to be able to go off-road and pull loads like any of those current trucks can.

culopatin 5y ago
I see them going to the store and back 99% of the time so a Leaf would do probably.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  That's not your decision to make. Maybe they only go out once a year and actually tow or go off road. It doesn't matter. If I'm going to spend $40k on a vehicle I get what I want. What I and a lot of people want is a vehicle that can do more than grocery store trips in some big urban center. If you're talking about a secondary vehicle I'm all in but a lot of people aren't able to afford a $40k+ secondary EV.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Weird examples - isn't EV actually uniquely well-suited to off-road and towing? Maximum torque at zero-revs? I can't wait to swap my Defender for a full electric variant when Land Rover manage to ship it - partly for the better capability.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  No it's not uniquely suited because the battery life is abysmal. The new Ford Lightning can only make it like 100 miles while towing before it needs to be recharged. Multiple tests with Teslas are the same. When they're loaded down their range is very bad.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    There's pluses and minus. For actual off-road capability it's mostly plus. If you're driving long-distance on a highway then yeah it's a minus... but that's not what trucks are for.
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      How are they a plus for off-road? No offense but I don't think you understand what makes a good off-road vehicle. Trucks are absolutely used for long distance. Probably more so since they're the top choice for towing recreational vehicles cross country.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        > How are they a plus for off-road? Huge torque. Quiet operation. Independent and precise wheel control. Don't need to rev them up to get up a slope. > No offense but I don't think you understand what makes a good off-road vehicle. I'm a serving cavalry officer. I do this professionally. What's your qualification?
        CountDrewku 5y ago
        None of that matters if you don't have power.
        pertymcpert 5y ago
        What a cop-out. You were beaten and you know it.
itisit 5y ago
The F-150 Lightning, R1T, and Cybertruck all offer a minimum towing capacity of 10,000 pounds. The price is higher and the range is lower than their petrol equivalents, but it is false to say these EV trucks are less capable in going off-road and pulling heavy loads.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  I'm specifically referring to the range. Stopping under 100 miles to recharge your vehicle isn't feasible for most people. Unless you're planning on forcing them to buy a $60k+ vehicle that's worse than what they currently have good luck.
Daishiman 5y ago
EVs will take over this role among the first things. Instant torque, no transmission, torque vectoring, no switching gears, no differential.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

meepmorp 5y ago

They bet on hydrogen vs electric cars, and that didn't pay off. They're already good at making ICE vehicles, so rather make up for a huge amount of lost time and effort, it's a bid to keep the current business going.

genousti 5y ago
Lets see in 10 years. Id bet hydrogen is one fundamental discovery away from winning
- meepmorp 5y ago
  Sure, but to be fair, they've probably thought the same thing for years as well.
- theluketaylor 5y ago
  The overall efficiency of using electricity to create H2, ship it somewhere, then convert it back into electricity with a fuel cell will never make sense for passenger vehicles. I'm sure we'll find new catalysts and methods to improve electrolysis, but there is a hard upper limit on how good it can get. We're not going to cut the energy requirements in half. Battery prices have cratered over the last decade and continue to drop. The overall efficiency of a BEV is something around 85-90%, whereas FCEV is around 40%. That's a lot of wasted energy for H2 and that will have a big impact on TCO (plus fuel cells remain very expensive after decades of work). I do see H2 fuel cells having a part to play in industries like shipping, forestry, and agriculture where grid connections are either tricky or impossible, but fuel cell passenger vehicles won't ever make sense financially.
  - Hypx_ 5y ago
    There is no hard limit except 100% efficiency (sorta*). As fuel cells are a type of battery they can eventually match li-ion batteries on efficiency. Combined with their ability to capture curtail power on a very large scale and the economics of hydrogen could easily surpass that of the EV. * There is a soft limit at 85%, but that is mainly due to the need to turn liquid water into steam over the entire process. This can be ignored if electrolysis is done on steam instead of liquid water. Also, 85% is close enough to li-ion batteries that very few people will care about it.

tata71 5y ago

> What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? They've absolutely perfected their vehicles as-is, comparatively speaking.