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Seeing all the comments here I'm asking myself once more how people can bear such crappy products. Especially as the products are overpriced on any reasonable s

Seeing all the comments here I'm asking myself once more how people can bear such crappy products. Especially as the products are overpriced on any reasonable scale. With a stock Linux you never see anything even close to all those catastrophes. I'm not aiming at a OS flame but honestly question how this is bearable to otherwise mostly reasonable people. Is there a true core to this Stockholm syndrome meme about Apple users? Why are people using obviously extremely broken stuff, especially as it costs at least one-third more than perfectly fine working stuff? I just don't get that. Honestly!

lmilcin 5y ago
I have been using Linux since last millennium and I can tell you there is no shortage of bugs. Just right now I am fighting my Fedora upgrade and Pipewire systems that are constantly reverting my custom configuration that I wrote to prevent automatically suspending audio to my external DAC. On a normal audio output it does not matter when your audio stops sending analog signal, but mine is connected over Toslink. When the signal stops the DAC on the other side also shuts down. Then when the sound gets back it takes time for it to turn on again (2s of silence + 2s of slow volume ramp up) which is extremely annoying. This happens by default after 30s of inactivity. Unfortunately, Pipewire developers seem to be having some pretty strange ideas about how to work with user configuration (basically, don't care about it). I had custom configuration and then it got overriden when they decided to move configuration from /etc to somewhere in /usr. Then I edited in /usr but it got overriden by fedora update system the next time it has been updated (I guess I could have predicted it). Then I followed documentation and edited in my $HOME/.config but apparently this also stopped working yesterday. And I just want to keep my audio working. Don't get me started on graphics or dev environment. See, no shortage of frustration there...
- still_grokking 5y ago
  I'm also using Linux since the last millennium. I can't confirm such issues. Using Fedora means using experimental stuff. Pipewire for example is not ready for prime time, so it has obviously issues. Simple as that. But I don't say of course Linux is without bugs. Never seen any more complex software without bugs… The point is how grave those bugs are and how they could possibly pass QA. Especially Apple has a comparably simple job here as they only support officially a hand full of products which are even build by themself. And it's not only me who sees one catastrophe following the other at Apple. Just have a look at the discussion thread on the other current front page topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 To repeat my question: How do people bear that? That's what I just can't understand. Again, I'm not interested in an OS flamewar. That Apple's products are subpar is a fact at this point, and we don't need to discuss that again. (Just follow the other HN thread). The question is why people are still using this stuff and not voting with their wallet (especially as it would make their wallet more happy).
  - zsmi 5y ago
    > Again, I'm not interested in an OS flamewar. That Apple's products are subpar is a fact at this point That second sentence seems like it was specifically crafted to start a flame war to me. You don't even mention on what dimensions Apple products are subpar. All possible ones I presume?
    - still_grokking 5y ago
      No it wasn't. Please just have a look at the linked evidence, which happens to be another discussion form the current front page.
zsmi 5y ago
> With a stock Linux What is a stock Linux? Want to be amazed. Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions I mean, there are family trees...
- still_grokking 5y ago
  > What is a stock Linux? Anything considered stable. I wanted to avoid OS flamewar so I wasn't too specific. But we are already there I fear… Nobody it answering my question. Instead people point out Linux isn't without bugs either. Even I never claimed that. It's without almost daily catastrophes. That's a big difference!
  - zsmi 5y ago
    >>> With a stock Linux you never see anything even close to all those catastrophes. >> What is a stock Linux? > Anything considered stable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)
- fragmede 5y ago
  It refers to a default install of any mainstream distribution, with few modifications. Eg you're bound to run into problems if you're running some strange window manager with a funky desktop. By comparison, I'd expect a base install with Gnome to mostly just work. Which it does with supported hardware. eg arandr(/whatever the GUI tool is) works fine for arranging monitors.
prewett 5y ago
I switch to macOS after successive updates of Ubuntu caused audio to be a pain in the neck (due to PulseAudio), no longer waking from sleep, and wifi not working. This was quite a while ago. Audio still doesn't work by default on my Ubuntu 18 system.
AlexCoventry 5y ago
I'm getting one of the new macs because the hardware seems great. I got one around the turn of the century for the same reason (and mostly ran linux on it.)
- still_grokking 5y ago
  That's a valid reason, I guess. But the current hardware only works with that crappy Apple software. So even the HW would be nice it's mostly unusable by now.
VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
Desktop Linux is absolutely riddled with bugs unless you have a suitably generic hardware configuration and even then you will very likely still have problems with: - Audio - Wifi - Bluetooth - External monitors - Suspend/Resume and power management in general - many other things I abandoned it years ago. I just don't have time for that anymore.
- still_grokking 5y ago
  I didn't ask why you don't use Linux. (Additionally I can't confirm any of the claimed problems; using Linux as a daily driver for more than 20 years. All the mentioned things just work OOTB since many, many years). I asked why people are using an utterly broken OS where even most basic stuff like memory management is defect. (Not even asking how this could possibly pass any QA)… Even if you think Linux isn't better, it can't be worse! But Linux is free. (And actually doesn't have most of the problems Apple has with even it's own hardware). So it's valid to ask how people bear using a broken system and even paying for it more than elsewhere. And to repeat myself form an answer given previously: That Apple's software is utterly broken and you won't find anything worse in the market is a fact at this point. Please just follow the other front-page discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881
  - VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
    I should have expected "it works for me" to be the go-to reply about why desktop linux is still terrible after all these years. The web browser is pretty much the best thing that ever happened to linux users because now their $favorite_distro is actually a viable desktop platform.
    - still_grokking 5y ago
      It may be "terrible"¹ (even it works for me, and a lot of other just fine) but it's not broken beyond usability at least! And even if it would be as broken as macOS it's free and supports much more hardware—compared to something where you pay even a premium to be bound to only one vendor. So the main question remains. ¹ https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...
matthewmacleod 5y ago
The problem is that you’re taking a relatively small selection of comments—usually only posted by people who have experienced a problem—and extrapolating an overall picture from it that’s probably not that reflective of reality. I use both Linux and MacOS roughly the same amount day-to-day. My experience is that they suffer from various niggly failures and issues to roughly the same extent in practice. I’ve had the Mac sometimes lose Bluetooth connections and need lots of switching things on-and-off to work, in the same way I’ve had NetworkManager drop off wifi with no apparent explanation. Or PulseAudio suddenly deciding to use all my my CPU. Or weird lock screen bugs galore! The products are broadly fine and functional, priced somewhat higher than commodity equivalents but in exchange for benefits which are worth it for some people and not others. I would gently encourage you to consider that other people likely aren’t idiots and are generally making decisions based on their requirements, which in some cases will not match yours!
- still_grokking 5y ago
  Thanks! First more reasonable answer that doesn't go into OS flamewars. > I would gently encourage you to consider that other people likely aren’t idiots and are generally making decisions based on their requirements, which in some cases will not match yours! That's the core of my question actually! I spelled it even out. I just don't get why reasonable people would buy such things. I'm actually not sure the amount of trouble is the same on average: I'm not reading almost everyday about some obscure catastrophes on Linux (like not working memory management like here, not working mouse or keyboard, not working USB, not working monitors, etc.). The other thing is Apple supports only a fraction of the hardware Linux does. It actually seems they don't do any QA. All that broken stuff shouldn't ever reach end-customers. Especially as mostly all that has to be done is to test against their own products.
dundarious 5y ago
I have a standard AMD CPU+GPU, and Manjaro has spontaneously rebooted (the hardest of crashes) at least 10 times in the last 2 years. I use Windows 10 on this machine about 10 times more often and in the same time-frame it has crashed _maybe_ once. My first Linux install was Mandriva in 2001, followed quickly by Slackware, then Debian, Ubuntu, Pop!OS and now I pretty much exclusively use Arch and Manjaro. I'm pretty sure that in all those 20 years, every time I use up almost all my RAM, the system becomes entirely unusable, to the point where I can't even interact enough to kill programs, and not even the OOM saves the system from total lockup, so I need to power off and on. I've _never_ had this experience on Windows. It gets slow, but it can recover. The only time where Windows (kernel) was less reliable for me than Linux, as a desktop user, was when I had Windows Millenium Edition -- when my journey all began. I'd still say I prefer Linux, but it's largely because it's better for my work on systems software. It's definitely not nicer to use as a desktop if you hate crappy products and like good ones.
- still_grokking 5y ago
  That's once more not an answer to my question… Regarding spontaneously reboots: I never ever experienced this on Linux besides once having a hardware defect. (I would check the RAM in your case first; Manjaro is an Arch derivative so it incorporates the latest SW but it's not so terribly unstable that it would crash every two month I guess; not sure of course. I'm avoiding Arch for exactly the reason not being stable enough cause it's extremely fresh SW). Regarding the unresponsiveness on low memory: That's an known problem caused by a live-lock in the kernel. It has a few solutions by now. Just have a look at Facebooks oomd (or one of the solutions working in a comparable way): https://facebookmicrosites.github.io/oomd/docs/overview https://facebookmicrosites.github.io/oomd/docs/overview
  - dundarious 5y ago
    I disagree, I think I dealt with the two key elements of what you wrote. > Seeing all the comments here I'm asking myself once more how people can bear such crappy products. Especially as the products are overpriced on any reasonable scale. Sure, macOS is a crappy product. A product that crashes to reboot is an even crappier product. > With a stock Linux you never see anything even close to all those catastrophes. Crashing to reboot is a bigger catastrophe, so I see worse on Linux. And I don't mean this in a harsh way, but I know it's a known problem, I just said I've been dealing with it in one form or another for about 20 years. The fact that it has been 20 years means it's a crappy product for desktop, and I won't believe otherwise until it's capital f Fixed in standard installs. One of the first things I do when I get a machine is install Linux, either to disk or in a VM, and it's the best thing to have happened in the OS space in the last 50 years, but it's still a crappier product for desktop than macOS or Windows. I use all 3 regardless.
bkanber 5y ago
My stock Ubuntu LTS desktop crashes all the time, about 3x a week. Still can't figure out why. I love linux, have used 4 different distros as my daily driver for the last 15-20 years or so. Yet still my linux-using friends and I have this joke: 'but will it hibernate?' And to answer your question directly: > Why are people using obviously extremely broken stuff a) it's not obvious and b) it's not extreme. Apple products work smoothly for most people most of the time. We're on hacker news where the entire point of this forum is the selection bias around tech stories like this.
- still_grokking 5y ago
  Have you considered a hardware defect? Even Ubuntu doesn't crash the whole time. Also you see usually at least some obvious reason in the logs if it's software related. Regarding the "extremely broken stuff": I came here from another thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 I couldn't help to post the above after also seeing what's described here. (Given all the down-votes maybe not the smartest idea, but I honestly couldn't help :-)). The problems are in my opinion indeed extreme and by now the mess gets undeniable even to die-hard fans. What makes me really scratch my head is why otherwise reasonable people don't vote with their wallet and still buy this things (even at a premium!).
  - bkanber 5y ago
    > What makes me really scratch my head is why otherwise reasonable people don't vote with their wallet and still buy this things This shouldn't make you scratch your head though... other people value different things than you do, and each person has their own personalized formula for whether a Mac is worth it or not. still_grokking's value judgement is not canonical for anyone other than still_grokking.
- doubled112 5y ago
  > but will it hibernate I can't be the only user who just doesn't care about hibernate. I definitely understand why other people want it, but I find suspend and hibernate almost disorienting. I don't want to continue a session where I left off. I'd start it back up, forget what I was doing anyway, and then I'd likely close all the programs and start over, realizing how amusing the effort I'd just gone through was. I'm willing to admit it might be a personal problem.
sneak 5y ago
Extremely broken is not an apt description. It's mostly minor annoyances, and they usually get fixed over time if they affect enough people. Apple isn't 100% unresponsive. Linux is equally, or perhaps more broken in many ways.

lmilcin 5y ago

I have been using Linux since last millennium and I can tell you there is no shortage of bugs. Just right now I am fighting my Fedora upgrade and Pipewire systems that are constantly reverting my custom configuration that I wrote to prevent automatically suspending audio to my external DAC. On a normal audio output it does not matter when your audio stops sending analog signal, but mine is connected over Toslink. When the signal stops the DAC on the other side also shuts down. Then when the sound gets back it takes time for it to turn on again (2s of silence + 2s of slow volume ramp up) which is extremely annoying. This happens by default after 30s of inactivity. Unfortunately, Pipewire developers seem to be having some pretty strange ideas about how to work with user configuration (basically, don't care about it). I had custom configuration and then it got overriden when they decided to move configuration from /etc to somewhere in /usr. Then I edited in /usr but it got overriden by fedora update system the next time it has been updated (I guess I could have predicted it). Then I followed documentation and edited in my $HOME/.config but apparently this also stopped working yesterday. And I just want to keep my audio working. Don't get me started on graphics or dev environment. See, no shortage of frustration there...

still_grokking 5y ago
I'm also using Linux since the last millennium. I can't confirm such issues. Using Fedora means using experimental stuff. Pipewire for example is not ready for prime time, so it has obviously issues. Simple as that. But I don't say of course Linux is without bugs. Never seen any more complex software without bugs… The point is how grave those bugs are and how they could possibly pass QA. Especially Apple has a comparably simple job here as they only support officially a hand full of products which are even build by themself. And it's not only me who sees one catastrophe following the other at Apple. Just have a look at the discussion thread on the other current front page topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 To repeat my question: How do people bear that? That's what I just can't understand. Again, I'm not interested in an OS flamewar. That Apple's products are subpar is a fact at this point, and we don't need to discuss that again. (Just follow the other HN thread). The question is why people are still using this stuff and not voting with their wallet (especially as it would make their wallet more happy).
- zsmi 5y ago
  > Again, I'm not interested in an OS flamewar. That Apple's products are subpar is a fact at this point That second sentence seems like it was specifically crafted to start a flame war to me. You don't even mention on what dimensions Apple products are subpar. All possible ones I presume?
  - still_grokking 5y ago
    No it wasn't. Please just have a look at the linked evidence, which happens to be another discussion form the current front page.

zsmi 5y ago

> With a stock Linux What is a stock Linux? Want to be amazed. Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions I mean, there are family trees...

still_grokking 5y ago
> What is a stock Linux? Anything considered stable. I wanted to avoid OS flamewar so I wasn't too specific. But we are already there I fear… Nobody it answering my question. Instead people point out Linux isn't without bugs either. Even I never claimed that. It's without almost daily catastrophes. That's a big difference!
- zsmi 5y ago
  >>> With a stock Linux you never see anything even close to all those catastrophes. >> What is a stock Linux? > Anything considered stable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)
fragmede 5y ago
It refers to a default install of any mainstream distribution, with few modifications. Eg you're bound to run into problems if you're running some strange window manager with a funky desktop. By comparison, I'd expect a base install with Gnome to mostly just work. Which it does with supported hardware. eg arandr(/whatever the GUI tool is) works fine for arranging monitors.

prewett 5y ago

I switch to macOS after successive updates of Ubuntu caused audio to be a pain in the neck (due to PulseAudio), no longer waking from sleep, and wifi not working. This was quite a while ago. Audio still doesn't work by default on my Ubuntu 18 system.

AlexCoventry 5y ago

I'm getting one of the new macs because the hardware seems great. I got one around the turn of the century for the same reason (and mostly ran linux on it.)

still_grokking 5y ago
That's a valid reason, I guess. But the current hardware only works with that crappy Apple software. So even the HW would be nice it's mostly unusable by now.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago

Desktop Linux is absolutely riddled with bugs unless you have a suitably generic hardware configuration and even then you will very likely still have problems with: - Audio - Wifi - Bluetooth - External monitors - Suspend/Resume and power management in general - many other things I abandoned it years ago. I just don't have time for that anymore.

still_grokking 5y ago
I didn't ask why you don't use Linux. (Additionally I can't confirm any of the claimed problems; using Linux as a daily driver for more than 20 years. All the mentioned things just work OOTB since many, many years). I asked why people are using an utterly broken OS where even most basic stuff like memory management is defect. (Not even asking how this could possibly pass any QA)… Even if you think Linux isn't better, it can't be worse! But Linux is free. (And actually doesn't have most of the problems Apple has with even it's own hardware). So it's valid to ask how people bear using a broken system and even paying for it more than elsewhere. And to repeat myself form an answer given previously: That Apple's software is utterly broken and you won't find anything worse in the market is a fact at this point. Please just follow the other front-page discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  I should have expected "it works for me" to be the go-to reply about why desktop linux is still terrible after all these years. The web browser is pretty much the best thing that ever happened to linux users because now their $favorite_distro is actually a viable desktop platform.
  - still_grokking 5y ago
    It may be "terrible"¹ (even it works for me, and a lot of other just fine) but it's not broken beyond usability at least! And even if it would be as broken as macOS it's free and supports much more hardware—compared to something where you pay even a premium to be bound to only one vendor. So the main question remains. ¹ https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...

matthewmacleod 5y ago

The problem is that you’re taking a relatively small selection of comments—usually only posted by people who have experienced a problem—and extrapolating an overall picture from it that’s probably not that reflective of reality. I use both Linux and MacOS roughly the same amount day-to-day. My experience is that they suffer from various niggly failures and issues to roughly the same extent in practice. I’ve had the Mac sometimes lose Bluetooth connections and need lots of switching things on-and-off to work, in the same way I’ve had NetworkManager drop off wifi with no apparent explanation. Or PulseAudio suddenly deciding to use all my my CPU. Or weird lock screen bugs galore! The products are broadly fine and functional, priced somewhat higher than commodity equivalents but in exchange for benefits which are worth it for some people and not others. I would gently encourage you to consider that other people likely aren’t idiots and are generally making decisions based on their requirements, which in some cases will not match yours!

still_grokking 5y ago
Thanks! First more reasonable answer that doesn't go into OS flamewars. > I would gently encourage you to consider that other people likely aren’t idiots and are generally making decisions based on their requirements, which in some cases will not match yours! That's the core of my question actually! I spelled it even out. I just don't get why reasonable people would buy such things. I'm actually not sure the amount of trouble is the same on average: I'm not reading almost everyday about some obscure catastrophes on Linux (like not working memory management like here, not working mouse or keyboard, not working USB, not working monitors, etc.). The other thing is Apple supports only a fraction of the hardware Linux does. It actually seems they don't do any QA. All that broken stuff shouldn't ever reach end-customers. Especially as mostly all that has to be done is to test against their own products.

dundarious 5y ago

I have a standard AMD CPU+GPU, and Manjaro has spontaneously rebooted (the hardest of crashes) at least 10 times in the last 2 years. I use Windows 10 on this machine about 10 times more often and in the same time-frame it has crashed _maybe_ once. My first Linux install was Mandriva in 2001, followed quickly by Slackware, then Debian, Ubuntu, Pop!OS and now I pretty much exclusively use Arch and Manjaro. I'm pretty sure that in all those 20 years, every time I use up almost all my RAM, the system becomes entirely unusable, to the point where I can't even interact enough to kill programs, and not even the OOM saves the system from total lockup, so I need to power off and on. I've _never_ had this experience on Windows. It gets slow, but it can recover. The only time where Windows (kernel) was less reliable for me than Linux, as a desktop user, was when I had Windows Millenium Edition -- when my journey all began. I'd still say I prefer Linux, but it's largely because it's better for my work on systems software. It's definitely not nicer to use as a desktop if you hate crappy products and like good ones.

still_grokking 5y ago
That's once more not an answer to my question… Regarding spontaneously reboots: I never ever experienced this on Linux besides once having a hardware defect. (I would check the RAM in your case first; Manjaro is an Arch derivative so it incorporates the latest SW but it's not so terribly unstable that it would crash every two month I guess; not sure of course. I'm avoiding Arch for exactly the reason not being stable enough cause it's extremely fresh SW). Regarding the unresponsiveness on low memory: That's an known problem caused by a live-lock in the kernel. It has a few solutions by now. Just have a look at Facebooks oomd (or one of the solutions working in a comparable way): https://facebookmicrosites.github.io/oomd/docs/overview https://facebookmicrosites.github.io/oomd/docs/overview
- dundarious 5y ago
  I disagree, I think I dealt with the two key elements of what you wrote. > Seeing all the comments here I'm asking myself once more how people can bear such crappy products. Especially as the products are overpriced on any reasonable scale. Sure, macOS is a crappy product. A product that crashes to reboot is an even crappier product. > With a stock Linux you never see anything even close to all those catastrophes. Crashing to reboot is a bigger catastrophe, so I see worse on Linux. And I don't mean this in a harsh way, but I know it's a known problem, I just said I've been dealing with it in one form or another for about 20 years. The fact that it has been 20 years means it's a crappy product for desktop, and I won't believe otherwise until it's capital f Fixed in standard installs. One of the first things I do when I get a machine is install Linux, either to disk or in a VM, and it's the best thing to have happened in the OS space in the last 50 years, but it's still a crappier product for desktop than macOS or Windows. I use all 3 regardless.

bkanber 5y ago

My stock Ubuntu LTS desktop crashes all the time, about 3x a week. Still can't figure out why. I love linux, have used 4 different distros as my daily driver for the last 15-20 years or so. Yet still my linux-using friends and I have this joke: 'but will it hibernate?' And to answer your question directly: > Why are people using obviously extremely broken stuff a) it's not obvious and b) it's not extreme. Apple products work smoothly for most people most of the time. We're on hacker news where the entire point of this forum is the selection bias around tech stories like this.

still_grokking 5y ago
Have you considered a hardware defect? Even Ubuntu doesn't crash the whole time. Also you see usually at least some obvious reason in the logs if it's software related. Regarding the "extremely broken stuff": I came here from another thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 I couldn't help to post the above after also seeing what's described here. (Given all the down-votes maybe not the smartest idea, but I honestly couldn't help :-)). The problems are in my opinion indeed extreme and by now the mess gets undeniable even to die-hard fans. What makes me really scratch my head is why otherwise reasonable people don't vote with their wallet and still buy this things (even at a premium!).
- bkanber 5y ago
  > What makes me really scratch my head is why otherwise reasonable people don't vote with their wallet and still buy this things This shouldn't make you scratch your head though... other people value different things than you do, and each person has their own personalized formula for whether a Mac is worth it or not. still_grokking's value judgement is not canonical for anyone other than still_grokking.
doubled112 5y ago
> but will it hibernate I can't be the only user who just doesn't care about hibernate. I definitely understand why other people want it, but I find suspend and hibernate almost disorienting. I don't want to continue a session where I left off. I'd start it back up, forget what I was doing anyway, and then I'd likely close all the programs and start over, realizing how amusing the effort I'd just gone through was. I'm willing to admit it might be a personal problem.

sneak 5y ago

Extremely broken is not an apt description. It's mostly minor annoyances, and they usually get fixed over time if they affect enough people. Apple isn't 100% unresponsive. Linux is equally, or perhaps more broken in many ways.