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Toyota Forms ‘Team Japan’ to Help Keep Combustion Engine Alive

28 points by belltaco 5y ago

tuatoru 5y ago
Still doing the wrong thing. Biofuels are environmentally destructive, both where the biomass is grown (soil loss, runoff eutrophication, pesticide use, biodiversity loss) and where they are used (nitrous oxides, PM2.5, larger particles, noise, waste heat, spills, etc).
aussiegreenie 5y ago
Toyota is a good short.
aussiegreenie 5y ago
Toyota is dead and a good short.
- ahdh8f4hf4h8 5y ago
  Toyota is probably on the wrong side of this tech, but it's still a bad short. They can survive a decade or two off of install base and reputation alone, and hybrid tech is still a better proposition for many people until batteries improve. (EV's still have relatively short range per full charge, long charging cycles, and battery range plummets in cold climates.) With the "Prime" models, Toyota should be able to pivot to an all EV car pretty easily if they needed to.
chrisseaton 5y ago
What’s the thinking behind it? What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? Do they think they’ll be raking in money when they’re the last petrol engine cars you can get?
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  It works. Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Maybe they'll get there but there's gonna need to be some massive advances in batteries to be able to go off-road and pull loads like any of those current trucks can.
  - culopatin 5y ago
    I see them going to the store and back 99% of the time so a Leaf would do probably.
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      That's not your decision to make. Maybe they only go out once a year and actually tow or go off road. It doesn't matter. If I'm going to spend $40k on a vehicle I get what I want. What I and a lot of people want is a vehicle that can do more than grocery store trips in some big urban center. If you're talking about a secondary vehicle I'm all in but a lot of people aren't able to afford a $40k+ secondary EV.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Weird examples - isn't EV actually uniquely well-suited to off-road and towing? Maximum torque at zero-revs? I can't wait to swap my Defender for a full electric variant when Land Rover manage to ship it - partly for the better capability.
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      No it's not uniquely suited because the battery life is abysmal. The new Ford Lightning can only make it like 100 miles while towing before it needs to be recharged. Multiple tests with Teslas are the same. When they're loaded down their range is very bad.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        There's pluses and minus. For actual off-road capability it's mostly plus. If you're driving long-distance on a highway then yeah it's a minus... but that's not what trucks are for.
        CountDrewku 5y ago
- meepmorp 5y ago
  They bet on hydrogen vs electric cars, and that didn't pay off. They're already good at making ICE vehicles, so rather make up for a huge amount of lost time and effort, it's a bid to keep the current business going.
  - genousti 5y ago
    Lets see in 10 years. Id bet hydrogen is one fundamental discovery away from winning
    - meepmorp 5y ago
      Sure, but to be fair, they've probably thought the same thing for years as well.
    - theluketaylor 5y ago
      The overall efficiency of using electricity to create H2, ship it somewhere, then convert it back into electricity with a fuel cell will never make sense for passenger vehicles. I'm sure we'll find new catalysts and methods to improve electrolysis, but there is a hard upper limit on how good it can get. We're not going to cut the energy requirements in half. Battery prices have cratered over the last decade and continue to drop. The overall efficiency of a BEV is something around 85-90%, whereas FCEV is around 40%. That's a lot of wasted energy for H2 and that will have a big impact on TCO (plus fuel cells remain very expensive after decades of work). I do see H2 fuel cells having a part to play in industries like shipping, forestry, and agriculture where grid connections are either tricky or impossible, but fuel cell passenger vehicles won't ever make sense financially.
      - Hypx_ 5y ago
        There is no hard limit except 100% efficiency (sorta*). As fuel cells are a type of battery they can eventually match li-ion batteries on efficiency. Combined with their ability to capture curtail power on a very large scale and the economics of hydrogen could easily surpass that of the EV. * There is a soft limit at 85%, but that is mainly due to the need to turn liquid water into steam over the entire process. This can be ignored if electrolysis is done on steam instead of liquid water. Also, 85% is close enough to li-ion batteries that very few people will care about it.
- tata71 5y ago
  > What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? They've absolutely perfected their vehicles as-is, comparatively speaking.
allemagne 5y ago
All the links in this article refer to other articles on "Inside EVs".
rdtwo 5y ago
Much of the world still does not have stable and reliable power grids. It’s hard to see how v electric cars could possibly work in areas where you might get power for 1-4hrs a day. If it look at where the hilux is #1 it’s those areas
- tonywastaken 5y ago
  You mean the Land Cruiser?
  - rdtwo 5y ago
    Hilux sorry
Daishiman 5y ago
I can't help thinking that this is a decision mostly out of emotional attachment. Petrolheads _really_ love combustion engines. If you like motorsport it is a visceral, sonic experience: turbo intakes, turbo wastegate explosions, straight-cut transmission whines. You don't get into the industry without having at least some level of emotional attachment to all of that. EVs, lacking that sensorial component, make for objectively better, but emotionally neutral objects. I have no problem relegating combustion engines to motorsport and remote locations where fuel density is critical. I also think it we should drive out ICEs from any barely populated area, as the externalities in air and noise pollution are incalculably high.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

28 points by belltaco 5y ago

Still doing the wrong thing. Biofuels are environmentally destructive, both where the biomass is grown (soil loss, runoff eutrophication, pesticide use, biodiversity loss) and where they are used (nitrous oxides, PM2.5, larger particles, noise, waste heat, spills, etc).

aussiegreenie 5y ago

Toyota is a good short.

aussiegreenie 5y ago

Toyota is dead and a good short.

ahdh8f4hf4h8 5y ago
Toyota is probably on the wrong side of this tech, but it's still a bad short. They can survive a decade or two off of install base and reputation alone, and hybrid tech is still a better proposition for many people until batteries improve. (EV's still have relatively short range per full charge, long charging cycles, and battery range plummets in cold climates.) With the "Prime" models, Toyota should be able to pivot to an all EV car pretty easily if they needed to.

chrisseaton 5y ago

What’s the thinking behind it? What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? Do they think they’ll be raking in money when they’re the last petrol engine cars you can get?

CountDrewku 5y ago
It works. Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Maybe they'll get there but there's gonna need to be some massive advances in batteries to be able to go off-road and pull loads like any of those current trucks can.
- culopatin 5y ago
  I see them going to the store and back 99% of the time so a Leaf would do probably.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    That's not your decision to make. Maybe they only go out once a year and actually tow or go off road. It doesn't matter. If I'm going to spend $40k on a vehicle I get what I want. What I and a lot of people want is a vehicle that can do more than grocery store trips in some big urban center. If you're talking about a secondary vehicle I'm all in but a lot of people aren't able to afford a $40k+ secondary EV.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > Show me an EV truck that comes anywhere close to what a Tacoma, Tundra or 4runner can do. Weird examples - isn't EV actually uniquely well-suited to off-road and towing? Maximum torque at zero-revs? I can't wait to swap my Defender for a full electric variant when Land Rover manage to ship it - partly for the better capability.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    No it's not uniquely suited because the battery life is abysmal. The new Ford Lightning can only make it like 100 miles while towing before it needs to be recharged. Multiple tests with Teslas are the same. When they're loaded down their range is very bad.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      There's pluses and minus. For actual off-road capability it's mostly plus. If you're driving long-distance on a highway then yeah it's a minus... but that's not what trucks are for.
      - CountDrewku 5y ago
meepmorp 5y ago
They bet on hydrogen vs electric cars, and that didn't pay off. They're already good at making ICE vehicles, so rather make up for a huge amount of lost time and effort, it's a bid to keep the current business going.
- genousti 5y ago
  Lets see in 10 years. Id bet hydrogen is one fundamental discovery away from winning
  - meepmorp 5y ago
    Sure, but to be fair, they've probably thought the same thing for years as well.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    The overall efficiency of using electricity to create H2, ship it somewhere, then convert it back into electricity with a fuel cell will never make sense for passenger vehicles. I'm sure we'll find new catalysts and methods to improve electrolysis, but there is a hard upper limit on how good it can get. We're not going to cut the energy requirements in half. Battery prices have cratered over the last decade and continue to drop. The overall efficiency of a BEV is something around 85-90%, whereas FCEV is around 40%. That's a lot of wasted energy for H2 and that will have a big impact on TCO (plus fuel cells remain very expensive after decades of work). I do see H2 fuel cells having a part to play in industries like shipping, forestry, and agriculture where grid connections are either tricky or impossible, but fuel cell passenger vehicles won't ever make sense financially.
    - Hypx_ 5y ago
      There is no hard limit except 100% efficiency (sorta*). As fuel cells are a type of battery they can eventually match li-ion batteries on efficiency. Combined with their ability to capture curtail power on a very large scale and the economics of hydrogen could easily surpass that of the EV. * There is a soft limit at 85%, but that is mainly due to the need to turn liquid water into steam over the entire process. This can be ignored if electrolysis is done on steam instead of liquid water. Also, 85% is close enough to li-ion batteries that very few people will care about it.
tata71 5y ago
> What is the real advantage to Toyota pushing petrol? They've absolutely perfected their vehicles as-is, comparatively speaking.

allemagne 5y ago

All the links in this article refer to other articles on "Inside EVs".

rdtwo 5y ago

Much of the world still does not have stable and reliable power grids. It’s hard to see how v electric cars could possibly work in areas where you might get power for 1-4hrs a day. If it look at where the hilux is #1 it’s those areas

tonywastaken 5y ago
You mean the Land Cruiser?
- rdtwo 5y ago
  Hilux sorry

Daishiman 5y ago

I can't help thinking that this is a decision mostly out of emotional attachment. Petrolheads _really_ love combustion engines. If you like motorsport it is a visceral, sonic experience: turbo intakes, turbo wastegate explosions, straight-cut transmission whines. You don't get into the industry without having at least some level of emotional attachment to all of that. EVs, lacking that sensorial component, make for objectively better, but emotionally neutral objects. I have no problem relegating combustion engines to motorsport and remote locations where fuel density is critical. I also think it we should drive out ICEs from any barely populated area, as the externalities in air and noise pollution are incalculably high.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]