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Why salt was so important throughout history (2018)
- ChrisArchitect 5y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17640343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17640343
- kaycebasques 5y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17640343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17640343
- foolfoolz 5y agoi never understood why salt was (is?) so valuable yet is available in seemingly endless quantities in the ocean
- sandworm101 5y agoRemoving it from the ocean is far from easy. It requires large amounts of fuel, time and space.
- gruez 5y agosame reason why we have water shortages yet it's available in seemingly endless quantities in the ocean.
- jimmyed 5y agoNot exactly a fair analogy, since we need a very large amount of water per head compared to salt (unless you are a freman).
- gruez 5y agoThat explains why there are water shortages in nevada, but even in places that are close to the ocean (ie. logistics is a non-issue) there are water shortages. eg. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56798308 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56798308
- b3kart 5y agoMy guess: extracting it from the ocean water requires evaporation, which in turn requires a lot of energy/fuel?
- k__ 5y agoDoesn't it evaporate on its own over time?
- Filligree 5y agoThat requires vast quantities of space and a hot/dry climate to be done efficiently. It certainly was done. Looking back at history, the places that could efficiently do so were major salt exporters; which rendered it uneconomical to do elsewhere.
- wikidani 5y agoYes, but I think that maybe in colder regions it's probably not cost effective. Specially in winter. So that would kind of explain why the polish salt mine mentioned earlier was important
- debacle 5y agoDigging the pan, hardening it (so it's relatively impermeable to sea water), and then repeatedly evaporating the water until you have a brine rich enough in salt to precipitate, and then massing that salt slush so it can completely dry, and then smashing it into a usable form. You can look at salt pans on Google Maps. Here is one I have been to: https://goo.gl/maps/uN968Stn6kPHnH6E7 https://goo.gl/maps/uN968Stn6kPHnH6E7 Obviously today this is done with gigantic machines, and the cost/kg is incredibly low to the point that locals do not pay for salt, but back before the advent of Caterpillar, I imagine harvesting salt this way was very labor intensive. There is a documentary on Amazon called My Name is Salt about the salt harvest in India. It is quite good.
- einpoklum 5y agoWell, if you go back long enough when you could use a larger area for a given output of salt, then - once you prepared your pan once, you could just let the water evaporate completely, and then scratch the salt of the surface. If your pan can be made of rocks than that should probably be even easier. Other than needing some decent sunlight and not super-high humidity - what am I getting wrong?
- orangepurple 5y agoUK has insufficient solar radiation and heat accumulation to properly dry saltwater
- mytailorisrich 5y agoIn general you need good climate and geography to produce large quantity of salt in salt marshes. Then, once you have done that, transporting it from coastal areas was also a big undertaking.
- debacle 5y agoIt's heavy, hard to recycle, and time and labor intensive to create.
- watwut 5y agoBecause inland areas exists and are large. Transportation was expensive and slow.
- jimmyed 5y agoWow, the British sure were really petty.
- sfink 5y agoPetty? I could see "cruel", or "clever", or strategic in their subjugation of other populations. It was a calculated tactic, not a petty one. Here in the US, we mostly slaughtered the natives and forced the survivors into reservations rather than coming up with clever ways of controlling them. Is our way or the British way more petty?
- jimmyed 5y agoOur way was murderous, maybe the worst way to do it. Maybe the only other case where it was worse was in New Zealand where the Māori people were almost completely decimated. In comparision, the Britishers were saints. They did not perform genocide (until Churchill came around... that was the age of barbarians unfortunately)
- lovecg 5y agoI’m curious what were the dietary sources of salt say earlier than 10 thousand years ago. There’s the argument that goes “people never ate salt in modern quantities so evolutionary speaking this is a new shock to the system”. Do we actually _need_ all the extra salt we’re consuming nowadays? Is it good/neutral/bad for us?
- mytailorisrich 5y ago> Do we actually _need_ all the extra salt we’re consuming nowadays? Is it good/neutral/bad for us? Of course we don't need it, and too much salt is indeed bad for us [1] [2] (hence all the campaigns about eating less salty). According to the references I've quickly found, for instance, an American consumes on average 3,400mg of sodium per day when the body needs less than 500mg (obviously this may be higher if you sweat a lot for some reason). [1] https://www.fda.gov/food/nutrition-education-resources-materials/sodium-your-diet https://www.fda.gov/food/nutrition-education-resources-mater... [2] https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-eating/eat-smart/sodium/how-much-sodium-should-i-eat-per-day https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-eating/eat-s...
- nradov 5y agoThose links are rather misleading and don't appear to account for the latest research. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31376-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- mytailorisrich 5y agoIn relation to the commenter I was replying to the key is how much is actually needed. If you have more specific information on this that'd be great. Your point seems only about how much really is too much and the article you linked to is suggesting that the WHO recommendation is very conservative. However, I'm not really clear why you think any of my previous comment or references were misleading: I don't think it is under debate that we do not need all the sodium we eat and that too much of it is indeed bad for health.
- hammock 5y agoOff topic, but I visited the Atlas Obscura-worthy “Wieliczka” Salt Mine which is a short drive from Krakow. Incredible place. I have been to my share of mines and caves but never to a salt mine. This mine is massive and has entire underground lakes and even a chapel, with a beautiful Last Supper relief and altar and chandeliers all hand-carved from the salt walls - by tradesmen no less, not artists. They actually have mass in the chapel every week. The massive salt deposits were what enabled the Polish kingdom to even be a thing. It was a huge economic boom. Highly recommend a visit if you are in the area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine
- coremoff 5y agoFor anyone interested, they do tours in several languages. Additionally, the tours have two sections - the first half that everyone does, and then they offer you the choice of going back up, or going to the museum area; definitely worth spending the extra time (particularly as it seems few people actually do it, so you'll have a chance to actually speak with the guide in more depth). I've been twice and would happily go again - couple years ago now, so maybe things have changed. I really should curate my photos - I took hundreds :)
- debacle 5y agoWhat does the air smell like? Is it like being by the ocean? Is the smell stronger?
- eatmygodetia 5y agoIt smells incredibly clean. The air is very pure, apparently, and it's meant to be good for your healthm I noticed this - my cold cleared up while I was there (and started again soon after). There's a slight cave smell, but not really. I don't know what it's like to smell like being by tue ocean, but I don't remember it smelling much like british beaches.
- hammock 5y agoIt smells pretty clean/normal. You can lick the walls and they taste like salt.
- jkeddo 5y agoAnd it is even more important today! Imagine unsalted database passwords ;)
- JoBrad 5y agoThis is why we need so much extra salt in our diets.
- ElectronShak 5y agoJust realised i've never seen an ad for salt...
- hammock 5y agoThe Morton girl?
- kazinator 5y agoThe word "salary" has roots in salt, as well as "sauce". Children in Slovakia all know a fairy tale called Soľ nad zlato ("Salt over Gold", translated as The Salt Prince) written by Pavol Dobšinský likely sometime in the late 1800's. It was made into a film in 1983 which became somewhat known internationally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Prince https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Prince In the story, the king gets offended in relation to salt, and bans it. Everyone in the land, as well as their livestock, gets sick in addition to having to deal with bland food and losing appetite. From one full text on the web: "Pomaly odpadla ľuďom všetka chuť do jedenia. Len už tej soli aspoň ako márny mak si každý žiadal na jazyk. Ešte aj statok trpel. Kravy a ovce prestali dojiť, pretože nemali soli. Ľudia chodili ako omámení a upadali do chorôb. Kráľ a jeho dcéry vyzerali už len ako tône." "Gradually, the people shed all their appetite. Everyonec craved even just a tiny smidgeon of salt on their tongues. Even the livestock suffered. Cows and sheep ceased to yield milk for lack of salt. People walked about as if drugged, and fell into illnesses. The king himself and his daughters looked but like shadows."
- jandrese 5y agoThis reads a bit like those old filmstrips where some character gets annoyed at a common object like springs and then wishes them away, only for some supernatural cartoon character to grant their wish and show how the world would fall apart without that corporations product. Basically long form marketing for your product.
- sweezyjeezy 5y ago> The word "salary" has roots in salt, as well as "sauce". Same as the expression "(not) worth one's salt". Roman soldiers used to get paid in salt instead of money a lot of the time.
- jasonhansel 5y agoSalt is particularly important if you're exercising--it's the main electrolyte lost through sweat--and is thus probably especially important in a society heavily dependent on manual labor.
- kaycebasques 5y agoHowdy HN, while this is on page #1 I figure I should "strike while the iron is hot" and talk about the book club service that I recently launched on https://bookworm.club https://bookworm.club [1]. Long story short, instead of a traditional book club, where you get together and vote on what book to read next (or don't have any say in what the next book is) I wanted to build a service that would automagically match you with other people around the world who also happen to be reading the same book as you. I think it has the potential for some very interesting conversation and connection making! The way it works is you just tell us what you're reading (or let us track your currently reading list on Goodreads) and we match you up with anyone else also reading that and help you organize a meeting to discuss the book. Feedback welcome. And sorry if anything on the site breaks... I'm a technical writer by trade, not an engineer. Although I consider myself fairly technical this is probably one of the biggest technical projects I've created to date. An eye-opening experience! I have a little more information about the book club service at [3]. [1] As you can tell from the history of the site, I originally wrote the salt post in 2018 and then didn't do anything for a few years. I recently quit my job and took a 1-year sabbatical (which will probably end up being only 9 months) [2] and finally invested the time/energy to build the book club service I had been kicking around all this time. The blog is my place to discuss interesting ideas from whatever books I'm reading (such as this fascinating "resulting" idea [4] I learned from Thinking In Bets). If you would like to contribute to the blog I am open to that possibility (just dig around on the site or my personal site to figure out how to contact me). [2]: https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue [3]: https://bookworm.club/about/ https://bookworm.club/about/ [4]: https://bookworm.club/blog/resulting/ https://bookworm.club/blog/resulting/
- woile 5y agoThanks for sharing, this fits me really well, I'm gonna give it a try.
- kaycebasques 5y agoYour support is much appreciated!
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- Aardwolf 5y ago> But, if you stick a vegetable in salt water, a different class of bacteria breaks it down into stuff that we can eat. The "bad" bacteria that live in the air can’t grow in the salt water, whereas the "good" can. Any clue why the bacteria that can survive the salt happens to be a "good" one? What has stopped "bad" bacteria that can survive the salt too from evolving?
- elhudy 5y agoI think the question you are asking is "why can lactic acid bacteria survive in a saline environment whereas some harmful bacteria types cannot?" I believe the answer is that "bad" bacteria CAN oftentimes survive in environments with high-salinity [1], but struggle to compete with lactic-acid bacteria (i.e. "good" bacteria - LAB) in the presence of both a saline environment as well as a high ph environment. LAB also engage in antimicrobial activities within your gut [2] likely using bacteriocins as the mechanism. Salt generally inhibits fungal growth though. [1] https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/243/2/373/495985 https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/243/2/373/495985 [2]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15374659/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15374659/
- im3w1l 5y agoYeah well why aren't lactic acid bacteria dangerous to us? Just coincidence or is there something more there?
- bullen 5y agoMost people misunderstand the accounting part of why salt was important, everyone knows what salt looks like and how much it's worth. It's a value comparator = it's used to compare other products (for example if a sheep is worth say 750 grams and a cow is worth 850g then you can exchange sheep and cows with some salt to cover the difference) this is the most valuable characteristic of money, something universal to build trade from. Seashells also work well in some places, not as a store of value but as trade enablers. I'm guessing no exchange was ever made in the history of man without this kind of value comparative, long before the term money was even discovered.
- elliekelly 5y agoInteresting. Along the same lines I would imagine it was one of the easiest “currencies” to confirm the authenticity of... a quick lick and you’ll know whether or not you’re being ripped off with a counterfeit.
- obiwan14 5y agoOne, then, has to wonder what the consensus algorithm was to determine the truthfulness of the taste (lick) test. Did they manage to put it on a blockchain?
- inawarminister 5y agoSame with gold, you could munch on a gold piece to test it's authenticity.
- Hermitian909 5y ago> I'm guessing no exchange was ever made in the history of man without this kind of value comparative, long before the term money was even discovered. I used to think this as well but it's apparently not true! In hunter gatherer tribes (and probably early agricultural groups) it sufficed for two parties to agree that one was getting the better deal and agree there was a debt. Then in a later transaction the debt would likely go the other direction, as the party in debt for the first transaction overpaid. This cycle seems to have repeated indefinitely if everyone stayed on reasonably good terms. Importantly, the stability of communities was the bedrock of these types interactions. Once communities got extremely large (1000s) or travelers became common place, the kind of comparative you're discussing seems to have become more important. I'd recommend reading "Debt, the First 5000 Years" to learn more
- kaycebasques 5y agoThe economies of scale in salt (and hot sauce baffle me). Let me use the hot sauce example, because it's a little more fun, but all the ideas apply equally to salt. How is it that I can buy a big jar of Crystal's hot sauce for like $2? Someone had to plant those peppers, produce vinegar, bottle it, transport it to San Francisco, let the grocery store mark it up, and it still only costs $2???
- jonshariat 5y agoDitto. It also blows my mind how stores operate. I think how can they offer so much verity and stay in business? They paid for all this food and its all going bad or out of season, how?
- Joker_vD 5y agoThey plan. You know, estimate what and how much people would buy and stock accordingly. Pretty advanced stuff!
- selimthegrim 5y agoI don't know specifically about Crystal, but when I went to Avery Island a couple hours away I saw Tabasco/McIlhenny had whole warehouses of drying and pickling peppers - I imagine they can control supply as needed and keep the wholesale price where they want.
- sumtechguy 5y agoThink about it this way. It is about margin (where the profit comes from). Keep that marginal cost equal to your marginal rev and you are doing good. Stray too far and you are leaving money on the table or maybe taking a loss. Control a couple of key aspects of production and your marginal cost can be low. In this case I would say the jar and lid is probably the most expensive bit and the salsa is probably made by the barrel full. Also most grocery stores do not set the prices or own goods on the shelves. The wholesalers/vendors typically do and the grocers rent out the shelves to them based on location in the store, height off the floor, and length/depth of shelf needed.
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- abdel_nasser 5y agopeople fail to recognize that people ate a lot less back in the days that salt was so precious. they also ate a lot more fat. eating less and having more protein and fat meant that they had less insulin in their blood and also more ketones in their blood. insulin tells your body to hold on to things including water and when you dont have a lot of insulin you lose more water and sodium with it. and ketones are a diuretic which promote the loss of water even more. sodium replaces insulin because it also causes your body to hold on to water. so it was very important because you needed it to offset lower insulin and also because you were losing it much more. if you didnt have access to salt back then you would have become very ill. a modern person who eats almost nothing but sugar in one form or another and in enormous quantities has so much insulin that they barely need any sodium unless they drink large amounts of water. we even tell people to have less sodium. but earlier people werent that way.
- mrandish 5y agoCan confirm from personal experience. I've been strictly eating a very low carb diet for almost four years now and require significantly more salt than I ever did previously. I also drink a lot more fluids. The only downside is that I need to pee more often but the upsides in my health, fitness, energy levels and even emotional stability have been so dramatic I've stuck with it for years after it helped me go from obese to well below my 'dream' weight goal.
- Mikeb85 5y agoSalt is important because its required to live. You'll die far quicker with no salt in your diet than too much.
- simonblack 5y agoProbably the most important invention ever by humanity was the refrigerator. Once we had refrigeration, meat could be kept fresh or frozen for very long periods of time. So could fish. Till refrigeration came along, the most important usage of salt was in preserving food. In wars like the US Civil War for instance, special missions were undertaken by the Union to destroy the Confederacy's Salt Works. That then meant that the Confederates could not preserve sufficient food, and therefore the Confederate soldiers had problems with malnutrition, one of the reasons the Confederacy lost the US Civil War.