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Microsoft has huge amounts of introductory content: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/learn/csharp https://dotnet.microsoft.com/learn/csharp And most stuff steers y

Microsoft has huge amounts of introductory content: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/learn/csharp https://dotnet.microsoft.com/learn/csharp And most stuff steers you towards the `dotnet new` CLI command to get started. Which I hate, I much prefer a .sln file from the get-go but maybe that’s on me. But it’ll get you a .NET 6/C# 10 .csproj in no time.

capableweb 5y ago
We seem to be going in the direction of making it as easy to start as possible, without actually understanding anything. `dotnet new` follow that, with creating a bunch of files that most beginners won't have any understanding of, instead of gently introducing you to each concept, so people understand what they are building inside-out.
- marcos100 5y ago
  I thinks it's easier to engage new people into your technology with this approach. Once they're hooked on, they'll have to learn the details. I don't know if you're old enough, but Rails got a nice momentum with their 'Blog in 15 minutes'.
- taspeotis 5y ago
  `dotnet new` is not a tutorial.
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  Its no different than the craziness of angular or node or react. All of them follow that pattern now. I ended up ditching visual studio and solution files though. Vscode and the dotnet cli are a good compromise and arguably more productive than trying to discern what some visual studio wizard just did to your code.
  - thrower123 5y ago
    This is my largest gripe with dotnet. It seems to have been taken over by the front-end web dev types who have done so much damage elsewhere, and are on a crusade to spread their questionable practices. The churn is getting too fast as they start to get out from under the shadow of continued compatibility with legacy 4.X dotnet. When languages move this fast, the library and tooling ecosystems cannot keep up and you lose one of the greatest advantages that C# had possessed.
    - datavirtue 5y ago
      ^^ The sad truth. I feel a lot of optimism for .NET due to the still struggling state of cross-platform development but the obsession with front-end web dev is drawing us deeper into a rabbit hole that I think we are all just about done with. We need to be using the same language for the front end and back end. Angular/typescript with node.js for web apps. Want something else? Prove why we need to duplicate all of our data structures and business logic. C# for the UI and back end? Sure. Just make sure to conjure up the $billon of tooling and libraries that we need.
      - smackeyacky 5y ago
        Node's dependency hell makes it a non-starter for me.
- bitwize 5y ago
  "Making it as easy to start as possible" means using IDE tooling. "dotnet new" etc. were bones thrown to Linux and Mac developers who don't have something as comprehensive as Visual Studio for .NET development.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > Linux and Mac developers who don't have something as comprehensive as Visual Studio for .NET development. We have JetBrains Rider
  - omnicognate 5y ago
    Jetbrians Rider is fully supported under Linux and MacOS and is way better than Visual Studio. The dotnet cli is an acknowledgement of the fact that an IDE is only part of the tooling story. Software toolchains need to be automatable and based on properly documented formats and conventions, not stuck behind GUIs and undocumented project files like it's the 90s (or, you know, you're Apple).
  - oaiey 5y ago
    The .NET team has their reasons. Before they were bound with the hip to visual studio. That time is over and freed them to do bigger things!
- pjmlp 5y ago
  They are chasing the Python and JavaScript devs, optimizing for "Hello World". From my point of view, they are chasing the wrong carrot.
  - oaiey 5y ago
    I felt the same way ... But when you look in DSL experiences like SwiftUI their global/implicit usings and other SDK experiences it is actually also benefitial for other cases.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Except as soon as one does any serious project, those minimal APIs will need to be controllers, unless one loves lambda spaghetti. And since they now optimize VS templates for hello world, that code needs to be manually written.
      - oaiey 5y ago
        To be straight: I also do not like the new templates. Thinking only newbies is not the right thing. But there language features i like
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
`dotnet new` gets you up and running in an editor like VSCode - my assumption is that if you're using a solution file you're using an IDE that creates it for you. You can also use `dotnet new sln` and then `dotnet sln add` to solve your sln problem. It's 3 lines, so it's a bit more typing, but it's still a pretty quick problem to solve.
dotancohen 5y ago
> And most stuff steers you towards the `dotnet new` CLI command to get started. As a developer with 20 years experience interested in getting into dotnet now, what do you recommend that I start reading?
pjmlp 5y ago
The focus on CLI seems to steam from the new blood on .NET teams, long are the days of "Developers, Developers, Developers" with nice graphical tooling.
rharb 5y ago
The dotnet CLI has the means for creating and maintaining solution files as well, for example: `dotnet new sln dotnet new console --output folder1/folder2/myapp dotnet sln add folder1/folder2/myapp` will result in something more like the new project experience from Visual Studio. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/dotnet-sln https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/dotnet-sl...

capableweb 5y ago

We seem to be going in the direction of making it as easy to start as possible, without actually understanding anything. `dotnet new` follow that, with creating a bunch of files that most beginners won't have any understanding of, instead of gently introducing you to each concept, so people understand what they are building inside-out.

marcos100 5y ago
I thinks it's easier to engage new people into your technology with this approach. Once they're hooked on, they'll have to learn the details. I don't know if you're old enough, but Rails got a nice momentum with their 'Blog in 15 minutes'.
taspeotis 5y ago
`dotnet new` is not a tutorial.
smackeyacky 5y ago
Its no different than the craziness of angular or node or react. All of them follow that pattern now. I ended up ditching visual studio and solution files though. Vscode and the dotnet cli are a good compromise and arguably more productive than trying to discern what some visual studio wizard just did to your code.
- thrower123 5y ago
  This is my largest gripe with dotnet. It seems to have been taken over by the front-end web dev types who have done so much damage elsewhere, and are on a crusade to spread their questionable practices. The churn is getting too fast as they start to get out from under the shadow of continued compatibility with legacy 4.X dotnet. When languages move this fast, the library and tooling ecosystems cannot keep up and you lose one of the greatest advantages that C# had possessed.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    ^^ The sad truth. I feel a lot of optimism for .NET due to the still struggling state of cross-platform development but the obsession with front-end web dev is drawing us deeper into a rabbit hole that I think we are all just about done with. We need to be using the same language for the front end and back end. Angular/typescript with node.js for web apps. Want something else? Prove why we need to duplicate all of our data structures and business logic. C# for the UI and back end? Sure. Just make sure to conjure up the $billon of tooling and libraries that we need.
    - smackeyacky 5y ago
      Node's dependency hell makes it a non-starter for me.
bitwize 5y ago
"Making it as easy to start as possible" means using IDE tooling. "dotnet new" etc. were bones thrown to Linux and Mac developers who don't have something as comprehensive as Visual Studio for .NET development.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Linux and Mac developers who don't have something as comprehensive as Visual Studio for .NET development. We have JetBrains Rider
- omnicognate 5y ago
  Jetbrians Rider is fully supported under Linux and MacOS and is way better than Visual Studio. The dotnet cli is an acknowledgement of the fact that an IDE is only part of the tooling story. Software toolchains need to be automatable and based on properly documented formats and conventions, not stuck behind GUIs and undocumented project files like it's the 90s (or, you know, you're Apple).
- oaiey 5y ago
  The .NET team has their reasons. Before they were bound with the hip to visual studio. That time is over and freed them to do bigger things!
pjmlp 5y ago
They are chasing the Python and JavaScript devs, optimizing for "Hello World". From my point of view, they are chasing the wrong carrot.
- oaiey 5y ago
  I felt the same way ... But when you look in DSL experiences like SwiftUI their global/implicit usings and other SDK experiences it is actually also benefitial for other cases.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Except as soon as one does any serious project, those minimal APIs will need to be controllers, unless one loves lambda spaghetti. And since they now optimize VS templates for hello world, that code needs to be manually written.
    - oaiey 5y ago
      To be straight: I also do not like the new templates. Thinking only newbies is not the right thing. But there language features i like

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

SketchySeaBeast 5y ago

`dotnet new` gets you up and running in an editor like VSCode - my assumption is that if you're using a solution file you're using an IDE that creates it for you. You can also use `dotnet new sln` and then `dotnet sln add` to solve your sln problem. It's 3 lines, so it's a bit more typing, but it's still a pretty quick problem to solve.

dotancohen 5y ago

> And most stuff steers you towards the `dotnet new` CLI command to get started. As a developer with 20 years experience interested in getting into dotnet now, what do you recommend that I start reading?

pjmlp 5y ago

The focus on CLI seems to steam from the new blood on .NET teams, long are the days of "Developers, Developers, Developers" with nice graphical tooling.

rharb 5y ago

The dotnet CLI has the means for creating and maintaining solution files as well, for example: `dotnet new sln dotnet new console --output folder1/folder2/myapp dotnet sln add folder1/folder2/myapp` will result in something more like the new project experience from Visual Studio. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/dotnet-sln https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/dotnet-sl...