14 ms·

The benefits of not belonging

100 points by imartin2k 5y ago

bigmattystyles 5y ago
There's various levels of not belonging - this one is the best version of it and is basically an outsider perspective. Not belonging and not wanting to belonging are great, but when you don't belong and want to belong, not so much. Being actively prevented from belonging is even worse.
- Aloha 5y ago
  I used to want to belong, I eventually found a group of people which I could belong to, another band of misfits.
jefurii 5y ago
I've always felt on the fringe of whatever group I was associated with. Honestly it doesn't feel that great. But certain times I realize I'm connected to a lot more people, and diverse people than those who are in the center of these various groups. I also feel like I have more integrity, don't have to sell my soul just to belong. YMMV
- npsimons 5y ago
  > Honestly it doesn't feel that great. You get used to it. After a while, you prefer it, in no small part due to having that outside perspective that is all too valuable in realizing how bad groupthink is.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  One of the things I hate about being on the fringe constantly is that I have so many interesting stories to tell, but none of them are mine.
Barrin92 5y ago
Given the authors biography and work in the VC / startup ecosystem, isn't "not belonging" just... normal? There's probably one blog post per denizen of San Francisco and surroundings on the internet by now about how different they are. Eccentricity is basically performative at this point, I've seen a lot of people just trying to be edgy to get attention in the sector. Honestly I think if you're actually looking for advice fitting-in (although not mindlessly), being conscientious and reliable serve the average person better.
- abernard1 5y ago
  As a retired tech person who is also one of the author's Third Culture Individuals, I couldn't agree with this sentiment more. The Bay Area startup scene is the most sheltered and identical group of people I've ever worked with. It's why I finally turned it in: I just can't stand them. My zip code in Oklahoma is substantially more diverse in any type of way you can think of except superficial ones. As it turns out everyone acting like they're "open-minded" or "edgy" or "innovative" does not suddenly become true if it is universally parroted. It's an open joke for people who exist outside that system.
manpagereader 5y ago
This is why our nations are destined to be subsumed by a techno-fascist borderless oligarchy. We're filled with people who don't belong, don't care for or about the culture of more native folk, don't value things which may be core values to the natives, such as freedom of speech. A mishmash of cultures, none of which cares about, or often for, the substrate upon which they grow. It's going to be an amazing time for the mercenary business these next few decades here.
IAmWorried 5y ago
Honestly does anybody NOT feel alienated in our current society? The US is overly hostile, we imported the whole world and all its cultural hangups with it. I mean if you're white people are shitting on you, if you're black people are shitting on you, if you're male people are shitting on you, if you're female people are shitting on you... like what exactly is this country FOR? Does anybody REALLY feel like they belong in America? Maybe the rich?
- RobertRoberts 5y ago
  Not where I live, rural America. All the insanity is _literally_ in the big cities. There are minorities out here and we all get along just fine. It's political groups and the media that get people whipped up into hatred for each other, not individuals or communities. The times have changed, and the media and agitators (no better term?) that don't want to admit they are part of the problem.
  - Svperstar 5y ago
    >There are minorities out here and we all get along just fine. I wonder if we talked to minorities in rural communities if they would agree with your assessment.
    - xvedejas 5y ago
      I think they would, but mostly just because of selection effects. There aren't so many minorities in rural areas, and the ones that end up there probably had better-than-usual reasons to end up in rural parts.
      - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
        I've lived in rural areas and they would say that when you get called "the good colored folk" by the white people in the area that there's a reason for that "good" description and it's not because they believe in racial equality.
    - 5y ago
bxparks 5y ago
I wonder if there is a bit of survivorship bias in this article. Some kids grow up in a non-friendly environment, but develop the skills to deal with the adversity, and when they grow up, those skills become highly advantageous. Other kids whither and fall apart in such an adverse environment, suffer from low self-esteem, substance abuse, and other mental illnesses, and never get the chance to reap the benefits of being an outsider.
- 8ytecoder 5y ago
  Indeed. And I have seen cases of both happening within the same single family. Different kids react to the same external pressure in different ways.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  I think there is. I think they are just speaking from their own experience. They are an authority on their own life experience and know what they've learned but that doesn't generalize. Advice is only right for the right person at the right time. > The best way to be liked is to just agree with everyone. This view is incomplete. Human relationships are build on connections. You can create those connections by agreeing with people, but that creates a very swallow connection. An example of connections is networking: you mingle in a group of people at an event and start or join conversations. Everyone at the event starts the shared experience of being there. After a conversation, you might find someone that works in the same city you do, that adds another connection. And so on. :)
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > The best way to be liked is to just agree with everyone. Maybe I'm different, but people who just agree with me are uninteresting.
    - throwaway803453 5y ago
      As are people who are impulsively contrarian.
    - 5y ago
gumby 5y ago
I also find it valuable…it’s part of the difference between an immigrant mentality and an ex pat mentality. The third culture insight explains a lot. My life, my mother’s life… A couple of things didn’t match my experience: > Then my move to San Francisco in 1999. Definitely an outsider without the Stanford or Berkeley or Ivy League I definitely don’t understand this unless it’s some weird sf thing. I live in the Vally and it’s not like this. > “you’ll never belong in Silicon Valley because you are way too international” Also feels weird to me. I’d guess that 2/3 of the adults in my Palo Alto neighborhood were, like me, born overseas and quite a few had a parapitetic background like the author (and me).
- legerdemain 5y ago
  About half the people I know in leadership roles in Silicon Valley came from Stanford and Berkeley. About half of the senior designers I know came from the D School. Heck, basically all senior leads on Palantir's Gotham platform came from the same Stanford fraternity. Startups in Silicon Valley are profoundly parochial in their membership.
cblconfederate 5y ago
I was just wondering, are there disconnected internets that i can join? I d rather stay in a limited sector that is not overpopulated and oversaturated with the mainstream, even if it has huge downsides. Just like how biology uses membranes to build the useful stuff , i think we need harder borders between internet communities to increase the variance. Everyone moving around like a giant mob and lashing at each other in universal platforms is not productive. I wonder what kind of tech is needed to begin the great internet fragmentation.
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  You just refuse to participate. If you want an exclusive club, leave the non-exclusive ones. Back to blogging instead of the social media mob. And much more actual face-to-face interaction instead of interacting via an online platform.
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    online is important. Today's cities have become more impersonal and less cohesive than in the past. blogging is indeed a good idea
- baud147258 5y ago
  I'd say niche communities function, when organised around forums, not subreddit [1], kinda like that? [1]maybe also discord servers, but I'm way less familiar with how they interact with each others
- ilaksh 5y ago
  Right, so the solution to information bubbles fighting is to create more reinforced bubbles. Makes perfect sense.
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    you mean bubbles as echo chambers, i mean bubbles as semi-permeable barriers
- 5y ago
npsimons 5y ago
> Social cues are overwhelming but most of the time the crowd is wrong or usually late. This alone speaks to why it's not just good for outsiders to be outside, but good for society as a whole.
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ospzfmbbzr 5y ago
Funny that when Vancouver was a 'backwater' as the article refers to it was when it was much more affordable and a lot less crowded. In other words much nicer to live in. Now the costs exceed the value of living there, which is diminished due to overcrowding, as well as real estate speculation and crime driven sky-high housing costs, and I know it better than most here.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Funny that when Vancouver was a 'backwater' as the article refers to it was when it was much more affordable and a lot less crowded Fewer people wanting to live their and those who do being less willing to spend a lot to do so is pretty much the definition of a backwater, so, no, its not really funny. > Now the costs exceed the value of living there To you, perhaps, but if that was generally true compared to the time you are comparing it to, fewer people would be paying the price to live there now than then.
- atweiden 5y ago
  > Funny that when Vancouver was a 'backwater' as the article refers to it was when it was much more affordable and a lot less crowded. In other words much nicer to live in. There’s no getting around it: increases in population density yield diminishing returns on quality of life. Returns may even turn negative if population density spirals beyond that which the natural ecosystem can support. Quality of life must be balanced against human population growth. Life is expensive — my fear is if we don’t intelligently limit the number of humans alive, soon only the ultrawealthy will be able to afford having a reasonable quality of life.
nobody0 5y ago
You get used to being famous, but nobody gets used to being ignored.
josh_today 5y ago
Wrong place, wrong time for this post and my comment but why are these ~1 min substack personal “articles” trending on HN lately
tayo42 5y ago
This is interesting to read and very relatable for me. Not white enough to be white, not hispanic enough to be hispanic. Caught shit through out high school and college for looking different though. Left my home town and moved around. Never quite felt at home in SF but now I was to different for my home town too and it doesn't really feel like the place I belong anymore. I'm not where I should I be or what Im part of. I don't even really feel relatable to being American either. I guess I do feel somewhat contrarian too at times and never really got into hype and pop culture either, maybe that's why. That was interesting to see the article say. I'm not really sure what to make of it. Im not sure I really like this perspective though, where its some benefit that helps you optimize your life or make better business decisions.

100 points by imartin2k 5y ago

There's various levels of not belonging - this one is the best version of it and is basically an outsider perspective. Not belonging and not wanting to belonging are great, but when you don't belong and want to belong, not so much. Being actively prevented from belonging is even worse.

Aloha 5y ago
I used to want to belong, I eventually found a group of people which I could belong to, another band of misfits.

jefurii 5y ago

I've always felt on the fringe of whatever group I was associated with. Honestly it doesn't feel that great. But certain times I realize I'm connected to a lot more people, and diverse people than those who are in the center of these various groups. I also feel like I have more integrity, don't have to sell my soul just to belong. YMMV

npsimons 5y ago
> Honestly it doesn't feel that great. You get used to it. After a while, you prefer it, in no small part due to having that outside perspective that is all too valuable in realizing how bad groupthink is.
the_only_law 5y ago
One of the things I hate about being on the fringe constantly is that I have so many interesting stories to tell, but none of them are mine.

Barrin92 5y ago

Given the authors biography and work in the VC / startup ecosystem, isn't "not belonging" just... normal? There's probably one blog post per denizen of San Francisco and surroundings on the internet by now about how different they are. Eccentricity is basically performative at this point, I've seen a lot of people just trying to be edgy to get attention in the sector. Honestly I think if you're actually looking for advice fitting-in (although not mindlessly), being conscientious and reliable serve the average person better.

abernard1 5y ago
As a retired tech person who is also one of the author's Third Culture Individuals, I couldn't agree with this sentiment more. The Bay Area startup scene is the most sheltered and identical group of people I've ever worked with. It's why I finally turned it in: I just can't stand them. My zip code in Oklahoma is substantially more diverse in any type of way you can think of except superficial ones. As it turns out everyone acting like they're "open-minded" or "edgy" or "innovative" does not suddenly become true if it is universally parroted. It's an open joke for people who exist outside that system.

manpagereader 5y ago

This is why our nations are destined to be subsumed by a techno-fascist borderless oligarchy. We're filled with people who don't belong, don't care for or about the culture of more native folk, don't value things which may be core values to the natives, such as freedom of speech. A mishmash of cultures, none of which cares about, or often for, the substrate upon which they grow. It's going to be an amazing time for the mercenary business these next few decades here.

IAmWorried 5y ago

Honestly does anybody NOT feel alienated in our current society? The US is overly hostile, we imported the whole world and all its cultural hangups with it. I mean if you're white people are shitting on you, if you're black people are shitting on you, if you're male people are shitting on you, if you're female people are shitting on you... like what exactly is this country FOR? Does anybody REALLY feel like they belong in America? Maybe the rich?

RobertRoberts 5y ago
Not where I live, rural America. All the insanity is _literally_ in the big cities. There are minorities out here and we all get along just fine. It's political groups and the media that get people whipped up into hatred for each other, not individuals or communities. The times have changed, and the media and agitators (no better term?) that don't want to admit they are part of the problem.
- Svperstar 5y ago
  >There are minorities out here and we all get along just fine. I wonder if we talked to minorities in rural communities if they would agree with your assessment.
  - xvedejas 5y ago
    I think they would, but mostly just because of selection effects. There aren't so many minorities in rural areas, and the ones that end up there probably had better-than-usual reasons to end up in rural parts.
    - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
      I've lived in rural areas and they would say that when you get called "the good colored folk" by the white people in the area that there's a reason for that "good" description and it's not because they believe in racial equality.
  - 5y ago

bxparks 5y ago

I wonder if there is a bit of survivorship bias in this article. Some kids grow up in a non-friendly environment, but develop the skills to deal with the adversity, and when they grow up, those skills become highly advantageous. Other kids whither and fall apart in such an adverse environment, suffer from low self-esteem, substance abuse, and other mental illnesses, and never get the chance to reap the benefits of being an outsider.

8ytecoder 5y ago
Indeed. And I have seen cases of both happening within the same single family. Different kids react to the same external pressure in different ways.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
I think there is. I think they are just speaking from their own experience. They are an authority on their own life experience and know what they've learned but that doesn't generalize. Advice is only right for the right person at the right time. > The best way to be liked is to just agree with everyone. This view is incomplete. Human relationships are build on connections. You can create those connections by agreeing with people, but that creates a very swallow connection. An example of connections is networking: you mingle in a group of people at an event and start or join conversations. Everyone at the event starts the shared experience of being there. After a conversation, you might find someone that works in the same city you do, that adds another connection. And so on. :)
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > The best way to be liked is to just agree with everyone. Maybe I'm different, but people who just agree with me are uninteresting.
  - throwaway803453 5y ago
    As are people who are impulsively contrarian.
  - 5y ago

gumby 5y ago

I also find it valuable…it’s part of the difference between an immigrant mentality and an ex pat mentality. The third culture insight explains a lot. My life, my mother’s life… A couple of things didn’t match my experience: > Then my move to San Francisco in 1999. Definitely an outsider without the Stanford or Berkeley or Ivy League I definitely don’t understand this unless it’s some weird sf thing. I live in the Vally and it’s not like this. > “you’ll never belong in Silicon Valley because you are way too international” Also feels weird to me. I’d guess that 2/3 of the adults in my Palo Alto neighborhood were, like me, born overseas and quite a few had a parapitetic background like the author (and me).

legerdemain 5y ago
About half the people I know in leadership roles in Silicon Valley came from Stanford and Berkeley. About half of the senior designers I know came from the D School. Heck, basically all senior leads on Palantir's Gotham platform came from the same Stanford fraternity. Startups in Silicon Valley are profoundly parochial in their membership.

cblconfederate 5y ago

I was just wondering, are there disconnected internets that i can join? I d rather stay in a limited sector that is not overpopulated and oversaturated with the mainstream, even if it has huge downsides. Just like how biology uses membranes to build the useful stuff , i think we need harder borders between internet communities to increase the variance. Everyone moving around like a giant mob and lashing at each other in universal platforms is not productive. I wonder what kind of tech is needed to begin the great internet fragmentation.

UncleOxidant 5y ago
You just refuse to participate. If you want an exclusive club, leave the non-exclusive ones. Back to blogging instead of the social media mob. And much more actual face-to-face interaction instead of interacting via an online platform.
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  online is important. Today's cities have become more impersonal and less cohesive than in the past. blogging is indeed a good idea
baud147258 5y ago
I'd say niche communities function, when organised around forums, not subreddit [1], kinda like that? [1]maybe also discord servers, but I'm way less familiar with how they interact with each others
ilaksh 5y ago
Right, so the solution to information bubbles fighting is to create more reinforced bubbles. Makes perfect sense.
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  you mean bubbles as echo chambers, i mean bubbles as semi-permeable barriers
5y ago

npsimons 5y ago

> Social cues are overwhelming but most of the time the crowd is wrong or usually late. This alone speaks to why it's not just good for outsiders to be outside, but good for society as a whole.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ospzfmbbzr 5y ago

Funny that when Vancouver was a 'backwater' as the article refers to it was when it was much more affordable and a lot less crowded. In other words much nicer to live in. Now the costs exceed the value of living there, which is diminished due to overcrowding, as well as real estate speculation and crime driven sky-high housing costs, and I know it better than most here.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Funny that when Vancouver was a 'backwater' as the article refers to it was when it was much more affordable and a lot less crowded Fewer people wanting to live their and those who do being less willing to spend a lot to do so is pretty much the definition of a backwater, so, no, its not really funny. > Now the costs exceed the value of living there To you, perhaps, but if that was generally true compared to the time you are comparing it to, fewer people would be paying the price to live there now than then.
atweiden 5y ago
> Funny that when Vancouver was a 'backwater' as the article refers to it was when it was much more affordable and a lot less crowded. In other words much nicer to live in. There’s no getting around it: increases in population density yield diminishing returns on quality of life. Returns may even turn negative if population density spirals beyond that which the natural ecosystem can support. Quality of life must be balanced against human population growth. Life is expensive — my fear is if we don’t intelligently limit the number of humans alive, soon only the ultrawealthy will be able to afford having a reasonable quality of life.

nobody0 5y ago

You get used to being famous, but nobody gets used to being ignored.

josh_today 5y ago

Wrong place, wrong time for this post and my comment but why are these ~1 min substack personal “articles” trending on HN lately

tayo42 5y ago

This is interesting to read and very relatable for me. Not white enough to be white, not hispanic enough to be hispanic. Caught shit through out high school and college for looking different though. Left my home town and moved around. Never quite felt at home in SF but now I was to different for my home town too and it doesn't really feel like the place I belong anymore. I'm not where I should I be or what Im part of. I don't even really feel relatable to being American either. I guess I do feel somewhat contrarian too at times and never really got into hype and pop culture either, maybe that's why. That was interesting to see the article say. I'm not really sure what to make of it. Im not sure I really like this perspective though, where its some benefit that helps you optimize your life or make better business decisions.