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Because there are no jobs there. Yes remote might fix that, eventually. But I strongly doubt that, especially as humans are social animals.[1] However The UK

Because there are no jobs there. Yes remote might fix that, eventually. But I strongly doubt that, especially as humans are social animals.[1] However The UK is a more extreme version of this. People move to london because it has the most concentration of high paying jobs, and as a side effect culture (what that is I leave up to you. I don't just mean music, cinema and posh people shit.) Now, I could move back to bumblefuck rural england, but I would have to exchange an underserved IT job market, with a median wage of >£60k to a once/two company town with a median wage of £38k. Combine that with houses only being 30% cheaper, and higher transport costs, no nurseries or comprehensive child care, the countryside can be a real pain in the tits. Costs are higher in the countryside, as there are less public amenities. So no, people can't just move, otherwise they would have done already. [1] there are two classes of remote "influencers" the first ones seem to be happy working alone, permanently. The second appears to be the ones that are "jet setting" where they work in a new country every other month. Both of these groups represent a tiny minority. I strongly doubt that we should be optimising for these two noisy classes of people. I suspect, and me, my team and wider company data backs this us (even though its shallow evidence) that they more popular route is hybrid.

mbesto 5y ago
> Because there are no jobs there. This is simply not true. There are a record number of job openings. I would go on to say that there has never been a time in history where finding a job was this easy. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/jolts.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/jolts.pdf https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSJOL https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSJOL "The number of job openings was little changed at 10.4 million on the last business day of September, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today"
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  Presumably OP means a job in their profession, not employment generically.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    In the current system not everyone is entitled to a job for their profession. People should get used to it.
    - uncomputation 5y ago
      > People should get used to it. Historically, this line of thinking never ends well.
      - lostmsu 5y ago
        That's true, but it is also true, that this is (at least partially) a self-imposed problem. Many people are giggling when they hear about a liberal arts graduate who struggles to find a descent job, but they never think the same might apply to their profession too.
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      So instead of optimizing for efficient allocation of labor and capital, we should instead optimize for the short-term benefit of the landed gentry class? Seems like a likely path to either economic ruin or political revolution. Probably both. Since you don't seem like you're be sympathetic to an ethical argument, here's some real-politik: "fuck the poors" works well enough when the poor are actually poor. Less well when the people being systematically fucked over have significant social esteem, education, and economic means. See: the American Revolution.
      - lostmsu 5y ago
        I don't see an ethical argument going against what I said in the parent comment. Here's a non-hypothetical scenario: Boeing lays off thousands of mechanical engineers in Greater Seattle Area. What do you suppose the local government has to do exactly to find jobs in mechanical engineering for them? What does it have to do with ethics?
    - KaiserPro 5y ago
      So you're saying that instead of optimizing for the job I am qualified for and have experience of, I should move to somewhere where the labour market is more subdued, and move to an industry where I have no experience?
- jedberg 5y ago
  But where are all these jobs? Aren't they mostly in the already impacted cities?
  - mbesto 5y ago
    https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/opening-industry.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/o... https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/opening-hire-seps-region.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/o... Considering there is no regional specific trends and the highest % of jobs are actually in white collar jobs (pro services, healthcare, etc.), I think its fair to assume this data represents the whole of the US...no matter where you live.
    - jedberg 5y ago
      Yes, it’s for the whole US, which tells us nothing useful for this debate. If there were 10,000,000 jobs in NYC and 1 job in Kansas or 10,000,000 jobs in Kansas and one in NYC, the graphs would look the same. So they tell us nothing.
      - mbesto 5y ago
        > So they tell us nothing. You should re-read my comment - I was inferring this was the case (to your point) based on the regional numbers. It's not perfect but it's indicative. I didn't have the time to dig into more data. > If there were 10,000,000 jobs in NYC and 1 job in Kansas or 10,000,000 jobs in Kansas and one in NYC, the graphs would look the same. These numbers are irrelevant anyway because they're always going to be correlated in some way to local population (thus per capita is important here) You should also check housing prices in states like Kansas, they're all through the roof - https://www.zillow.com/ks/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/ks/home-values/ - in other words people aren't magically leaving these places for major metros (people follow jobs). Anyway took some digging but here is some data that explains it better: https://balancingeverything.com/states-with-the-best-job-market/ https://balancingeverything.com/states-with-the-best-job-mar... For example - Ohio has 231k openings compared to NY's 345k with a fraction of the overall population. So, no, leaving a major metro doesn't mean there "aren't any jobs". Quite the opposite actually. This has been talked about endless in media for the last 12 months, so it's no surprise the data supports it.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  Do you have links that show the typical pay for those jobs?
  - mbesto 5y ago
    No but see my link above, a large plurality of jobs are professional services and healthcare, which if you read any "these jobs pay the highest" article it's usually those two sectors.
- mateo411 5y ago
  You are correct that there are a record number of jobs. However, the person you are responding is talking about the economic situation in the UK. I'm pretty sure those links to the Fed reports do not characterize the economic situation in the UK, because that's not their purview. The housing and job situation in the UK is much more difficult than the US.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  Yes, but are they high paying, high security jobs?
iammisc 5y ago
The unsheltered homeless are not working in most cities...
globular-toast 5y ago
There is another factor when it comes to moving: people don't necessarily want to move away from their families and friends. It's becoming increasingly common for families to be spread apart which is really a shame because it makes having children way more difficult (your parents will often gladly give you free "childcare" and it will make them happier too). I also suspect mental health problems are more prevalent in people who don't really have a "home". I've met so many people highly educated people in tech and academia who are essentially vagrants and they are often deeply unhappy at not being able to maintain relationships. The centralisation of computer related jobs in the UK is sad. I had to move to Cambridge as it seems to be the only option that wasn't too far away and wasn't London. House prices are ridiculously inflated here and you don't even really get anything for your money. All the "culture" here is posh people shit (ie. only for Cambridge University people) or just regular stuff for the plebs that you can find anywhere. I'd have much rather moved somewhere like Bristol, but there just doesn't seem to be enough work there any more.

mbesto 5y ago

> Because there are no jobs there. This is simply not true. There are a record number of job openings. I would go on to say that there has never been a time in history where finding a job was this easy. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/jolts.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/jolts.pdf https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSJOL https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSJOL "The number of job openings was little changed at 10.4 million on the last business day of September, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today"

throwawaygh 5y ago
Presumably OP means a job in their profession, not employment generically.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  In the current system not everyone is entitled to a job for their profession. People should get used to it.
  - uncomputation 5y ago
    > People should get used to it. Historically, this line of thinking never ends well.
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      That's true, but it is also true, that this is (at least partially) a self-imposed problem. Many people are giggling when they hear about a liberal arts graduate who struggles to find a descent job, but they never think the same might apply to their profession too.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    So instead of optimizing for efficient allocation of labor and capital, we should instead optimize for the short-term benefit of the landed gentry class? Seems like a likely path to either economic ruin or political revolution. Probably both. Since you don't seem like you're be sympathetic to an ethical argument, here's some real-politik: "fuck the poors" works well enough when the poor are actually poor. Less well when the people being systematically fucked over have significant social esteem, education, and economic means. See: the American Revolution.
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      I don't see an ethical argument going against what I said in the parent comment. Here's a non-hypothetical scenario: Boeing lays off thousands of mechanical engineers in Greater Seattle Area. What do you suppose the local government has to do exactly to find jobs in mechanical engineering for them? What does it have to do with ethics?
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    So you're saying that instead of optimizing for the job I am qualified for and have experience of, I should move to somewhere where the labour market is more subdued, and move to an industry where I have no experience?
jedberg 5y ago
But where are all these jobs? Aren't they mostly in the already impacted cities?
- mbesto 5y ago
  https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/opening-industry.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/o... https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/opening-hire-seps-region.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/job-openings-and-labor-turnover/o... Considering there is no regional specific trends and the highest % of jobs are actually in white collar jobs (pro services, healthcare, etc.), I think its fair to assume this data represents the whole of the US...no matter where you live.
  - jedberg 5y ago
    Yes, it’s for the whole US, which tells us nothing useful for this debate. If there were 10,000,000 jobs in NYC and 1 job in Kansas or 10,000,000 jobs in Kansas and one in NYC, the graphs would look the same. So they tell us nothing.
    - mbesto 5y ago
      > So they tell us nothing. You should re-read my comment - I was inferring this was the case (to your point) based on the regional numbers. It's not perfect but it's indicative. I didn't have the time to dig into more data. > If there were 10,000,000 jobs in NYC and 1 job in Kansas or 10,000,000 jobs in Kansas and one in NYC, the graphs would look the same. These numbers are irrelevant anyway because they're always going to be correlated in some way to local population (thus per capita is important here) You should also check housing prices in states like Kansas, they're all through the roof - https://www.zillow.com/ks/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/ks/home-values/ - in other words people aren't magically leaving these places for major metros (people follow jobs). Anyway took some digging but here is some data that explains it better: https://balancingeverything.com/states-with-the-best-job-market/ https://balancingeverything.com/states-with-the-best-job-mar... For example - Ohio has 231k openings compared to NY's 345k with a fraction of the overall population. So, no, leaving a major metro doesn't mean there "aren't any jobs". Quite the opposite actually. This has been talked about endless in media for the last 12 months, so it's no surprise the data supports it.
JaimeThompson 5y ago
Do you have links that show the typical pay for those jobs?
- mbesto 5y ago
  No but see my link above, a large plurality of jobs are professional services and healthcare, which if you read any "these jobs pay the highest" article it's usually those two sectors.
mateo411 5y ago
You are correct that there are a record number of jobs. However, the person you are responding is talking about the economic situation in the UK. I'm pretty sure those links to the Fed reports do not characterize the economic situation in the UK, because that's not their purview. The housing and job situation in the UK is much more difficult than the US.
KaiserPro 5y ago
Yes, but are they high paying, high security jobs?

iammisc 5y ago

The unsheltered homeless are not working in most cities...

globular-toast 5y ago

There is another factor when it comes to moving: people don't necessarily want to move away from their families and friends. It's becoming increasingly common for families to be spread apart which is really a shame because it makes having children way more difficult (your parents will often gladly give you free "childcare" and it will make them happier too). I also suspect mental health problems are more prevalent in people who don't really have a "home". I've met so many people highly educated people in tech and academia who are essentially vagrants and they are often deeply unhappy at not being able to maintain relationships. The centralisation of computer related jobs in the UK is sad. I had to move to Cambridge as it seems to be the only option that wasn't too far away and wasn't London. House prices are ridiculously inflated here and you don't even really get anything for your money. All the "culture" here is posh people shit (ie. only for Cambridge University people) or just regular stuff for the plebs that you can find anywhere. I'd have much rather moved somewhere like Bristol, but there just doesn't seem to be enough work there any more.