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Oh, great timing. Just ended a conversation with some friends who had bought a dishwasher. The display for these new machines had been removed, so the only way

Oh, great timing. Just ended a conversation with some friends who had bought a dishwasher. The display for these new machines had been removed, so the only way to tell when the machine was really finished was to... Guess what? Download an app! I suppose I don't need to tell you all the permissions it asked for...

Waterluvian 5y ago
Someone can make an absolute killing by creating an entire brand of “dumb” appliances that Just Work. Make them sensible quality, modern, entirely offline.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  they'll make a lot less of 'an absolute killing' than the devices and apps that spy on you through your phone and generate a constant revenue stream after the initial purpose. That's why dumb devices are getting harder and harder to find. It's much easier to take advantage of users and steal their data with 'smart' devices.
  - Waterluvian 5y ago
    It’s a curve. What you’re saying is a true to a certain point. After that point the smart devices have created a sufficient market for dumb devices.
    - LegitShady 5y ago
      it depends on how much those dumb devices cost. many people are price sensitive and unaware of the privacy concerns, and the less business you have the more expensive each unit is to make, etc. Dumb TVs are the same thing. Hard to find, and surprisingly expensive for the feature set when you do find them. I don't currently own a TV but if there was a decent dumb TV that was decently affordable and wasn't garbage I might buy one to watch movies on. Also on the front page https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 Vizio makes more money spying on people who buy TVs than TVs themselves
      - hunter2_ 5y ago
        Could run a shadow vlan/tablet/etc. where you do absolutely nothing personal and just use it as a UI for the subsidized IoT devices. Obviously this is serious effort right now for most people, so a mass-market shim that makes it easy for all could be a successful niche. People love the integration of a single thing in their pocket, but maybe some are getting privacy-conscious enough to have two. Think of it like a TV remote that floats around your coffee table.
        thebean11 5y ago
        Needing to go get the tablet from the laundry room cause you want to make toast is also abysmal UX..
- bnjemian 5y ago
  100% agree, I've been saying this for years. I've joked with friends that I'd call it Dumb Inc. It's (mostly) in jest, but I think there's a real mismatch of expectations with a lot of modern appliances with respect to what a consumer needs and what companies use to try and differentiate their products from the competition. In evolutionary biology, there's this idea that "evolution is stingy" – in most cases, a species doesn't have substantially more capability than it needs to survive (human brains are an often cited exception). I kind of expect that, outside of a computer, most product design should be err on the side of being stingy too. If I buy a toaster, I don't need it to be wi-fi connected so it can send me a text notification when the toast is done. I say this satirically, but I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if one existed. Frackin' toasters.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    It didn't take me long to find your smart toaster. You can't use SMS, though; have to install the app. https://www.engadget.com/2017-01-04-griffin-connects-your-toast-to-your-phone.html https://www.engadget.com/2017-01-04-griffin-connects-your-to...
    - bojangleslover 5y ago
      Can't make this shit up!
    - bnjemian 5y ago
      :facepalm:
  - unicornporn 5y ago
    > 100% agree, I've been saying this for years. I've joked with friends that I'd call it Dumb Inc. The problem is that — in a not so distant future, where every company makes a large slice of its profit from selling user data — Dumb Inc. products will be a lot more expensive than the competition. As people in general are not technically competent to assess the consequences of their digital actions, they will chose the cheaper option. So, perhaps Dumb Inc. won't have mass market appeal, but I guess it could still sell to the techo elite. :)
- sircastor 5y ago
  I think privacy advocates think that there’s this massive untapped market of single-issue consumers who would gladly spend the extra money for this kind of thing. I don’t think it’s there. I’d be willing to bet appliances are already a commoditized market and the margins are already painfully thin. “Absolute killing” it would not be.
  - staticautomatic 5y ago
    I doubt the appliance companies have researched it, and I say that as a product/marketing researcher.
  - gaganyaan 5y ago
    It's not just about privacy, it's also about durability and repairability.
- yumraj 5y ago
  The problem is a certain % of HN readers and so on will but those, even pay a premium. But the rest of the population just wants smart appliances and Nest or other smart thermostats, Ring/other key hole cameras, Alexa/other smart devices and Facebook/Instagram/TikTok/… So, unfortunately it’s not going to be a very successful business because the dumb masses have been brainwashed into accepting these smart devices. I think Framework would be a good test. If they are successful it may imply that there is a large enough market, otherwise all bets are off.
  - emptyparadise 5y ago
    Do people really want this stuff or are they forced to use it? When your options are either buying this IoT thing or not buying the thing at all, what can you do?
    - yumraj 5y ago
      I don't think anyone is forced to buy an Amazon Eco speaker, a Google Home or an Apple Homepod. Given that people are buying these tells me that some people want it and are willing to sacrifice privacy. Similarly, a lot of people are willing to buy a Tesla despite all the monitoring that that car does. And so on. So, it is obvious that a certain percentage of people don't care about privacy. Now, what is dangerous is that a substantial percentage of these people are so called tech-savvy and even people in the tech industry. So, if they don't care despite them being able to understand the privacy issues, the general population which looks at these people for buying advice is certainly not going to care.
- userbinator 5y ago
  There's actually a pretty large market in used appliances that have been refurbished with all-new wear parts (seals, bushings, etc.) I don't think the manufacturers want to create dishwashers and other appliances that last decades anymore.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Care to elaborate? I've got a dream of someday making an aftermarket appliance control board that could be retrofitted into different types of appliances, offering smart features - Free firmware, Free app, automation, etc (obviously without all the surveillance/lockin bullshit). I'd love to hear what else is already out there.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  The fact that you are here, making this comment, as if there weren't any, proves there's no great market opportunity. Few people will seek out such things; instead they will continue to complain about how there aren't any. I'm not making a general comment; I bought a washer and dryer for the first time in my life a couple years ago, GE branded, and they have no wifi, bluetooth, or even any kind of electronic display. As it happens, I got them more for their dimensions fitting the space I had than anything else, as GE hasn't had the greatest reputation for reliability in recent years. But so far, they work fine.
- jdeibele 5y ago
  My brother-in-law bought a Speed Queen washer because it has relatively primitive technology. As I understand it, they're aimed more at commercial users or users who want to fix their machines themselves. https://speedqueen.com/ https://speedqueen.com/
01100011 5y ago
Personally I think I prefer devices which offload the UI to a smartphone. I was thinking of something like this years ago where you could use something like Bluetooth to push a web UI so devices like thermostats would no longer need to have a shitty UI for things like programming schedules. Unfortunately in this case the greed of the manufacturer hoping to monetize their UI has ruined an otherwise decent idea(although the device really should function on some basic level without a phone).
- MBCook 5y ago
  What happens in two or three years when they decide to stop updating the app and it no longer works on your phone? They couldn’t bother since there was no recurring revenue stream so you just have to buy a new dishwasher?
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    Or if Apple decides their devices can be .08mm thinner without Bluetooth?
    - msrenee 5y ago
      Then how would they sell their headphones?
      - taneq 5y ago
        New incompatible protocol, duh! :P
  - 34679 5y ago
    I believe the other person was talking about having the devices serve up webpage UIs, so you wouldn't need their specific app, just a browser. A lot of makers do this with their 3D printers and CNC machines, as it avoids the cost and hassle of installing a display on the machine. Two of the more popular ones, for those interested: octoprint.org cnc.js.org
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> The display for these new machines had been removed, so the only way to tell when the machine was really finished was to... Guess what? Welll.... The display on my dishwasher technically exists. It is set on the top face of the panel, facing up into the counter, so it cannot be seen when the dishwasher is closed. I'm not sure who thought of this, but it must have been approved by multiple people to appear on a real, already-manufactured dishwasher. Every one of those people was apparently terrible at their job.
- treis 5y ago
  Mine is like that. Looks better, IMHO. There's a red light that's projected on the ground to tell you if it is running or not.
jay3ss 5y ago
This is an awful, consumer hostile trend. I have a Bose sound bar that requires an app, account, and internet and blue tooth connection just to change the settings. Luckily it has a remote so I can use it without any of those things, but it can only change the volume and power the device on/off. I only kept it because the sound is good and it was a gift.
evenw 5y ago
The default "happy path" for new Samsung televisions is to be set up through an app. A mandatory step is to allow background location tracking permissions.

Waterluvian 5y ago

Someone can make an absolute killing by creating an entire brand of “dumb” appliances that Just Work. Make them sensible quality, modern, entirely offline.

LegitShady 5y ago
they'll make a lot less of 'an absolute killing' than the devices and apps that spy on you through your phone and generate a constant revenue stream after the initial purpose. That's why dumb devices are getting harder and harder to find. It's much easier to take advantage of users and steal their data with 'smart' devices.
- Waterluvian 5y ago
  It’s a curve. What you’re saying is a true to a certain point. After that point the smart devices have created a sufficient market for dumb devices.
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    it depends on how much those dumb devices cost. many people are price sensitive and unaware of the privacy concerns, and the less business you have the more expensive each unit is to make, etc. Dumb TVs are the same thing. Hard to find, and surprisingly expensive for the feature set when you do find them. I don't currently own a TV but if there was a decent dumb TV that was decently affordable and wasn't garbage I might buy one to watch movies on. Also on the front page https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 Vizio makes more money spying on people who buy TVs than TVs themselves
    - hunter2_ 5y ago
      Could run a shadow vlan/tablet/etc. where you do absolutely nothing personal and just use it as a UI for the subsidized IoT devices. Obviously this is serious effort right now for most people, so a mass-market shim that makes it easy for all could be a successful niche. People love the integration of a single thing in their pocket, but maybe some are getting privacy-conscious enough to have two. Think of it like a TV remote that floats around your coffee table.
      - thebean11 5y ago
        Needing to go get the tablet from the laundry room cause you want to make toast is also abysmal UX..
bnjemian 5y ago
100% agree, I've been saying this for years. I've joked with friends that I'd call it Dumb Inc. It's (mostly) in jest, but I think there's a real mismatch of expectations with a lot of modern appliances with respect to what a consumer needs and what companies use to try and differentiate their products from the competition. In evolutionary biology, there's this idea that "evolution is stingy" – in most cases, a species doesn't have substantially more capability than it needs to survive (human brains are an often cited exception). I kind of expect that, outside of a computer, most product design should be err on the side of being stingy too. If I buy a toaster, I don't need it to be wi-fi connected so it can send me a text notification when the toast is done. I say this satirically, but I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if one existed. Frackin' toasters.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  It didn't take me long to find your smart toaster. You can't use SMS, though; have to install the app. https://www.engadget.com/2017-01-04-griffin-connects-your-toast-to-your-phone.html https://www.engadget.com/2017-01-04-griffin-connects-your-to...
  - bojangleslover 5y ago
    Can't make this shit up!
  - bnjemian 5y ago
    :facepalm:
- unicornporn 5y ago
  > 100% agree, I've been saying this for years. I've joked with friends that I'd call it Dumb Inc. The problem is that — in a not so distant future, where every company makes a large slice of its profit from selling user data — Dumb Inc. products will be a lot more expensive than the competition. As people in general are not technically competent to assess the consequences of their digital actions, they will chose the cheaper option. So, perhaps Dumb Inc. won't have mass market appeal, but I guess it could still sell to the techo elite. :)
sircastor 5y ago
I think privacy advocates think that there’s this massive untapped market of single-issue consumers who would gladly spend the extra money for this kind of thing. I don’t think it’s there. I’d be willing to bet appliances are already a commoditized market and the margins are already painfully thin. “Absolute killing” it would not be.
- staticautomatic 5y ago
  I doubt the appliance companies have researched it, and I say that as a product/marketing researcher.
- gaganyaan 5y ago
  It's not just about privacy, it's also about durability and repairability.
yumraj 5y ago
The problem is a certain % of HN readers and so on will but those, even pay a premium. But the rest of the population just wants smart appliances and Nest or other smart thermostats, Ring/other key hole cameras, Alexa/other smart devices and Facebook/Instagram/TikTok/… So, unfortunately it’s not going to be a very successful business because the dumb masses have been brainwashed into accepting these smart devices. I think Framework would be a good test. If they are successful it may imply that there is a large enough market, otherwise all bets are off.
- emptyparadise 5y ago
  Do people really want this stuff or are they forced to use it? When your options are either buying this IoT thing or not buying the thing at all, what can you do?
  - yumraj 5y ago
    I don't think anyone is forced to buy an Amazon Eco speaker, a Google Home or an Apple Homepod. Given that people are buying these tells me that some people want it and are willing to sacrifice privacy. Similarly, a lot of people are willing to buy a Tesla despite all the monitoring that that car does. And so on. So, it is obvious that a certain percentage of people don't care about privacy. Now, what is dangerous is that a substantial percentage of these people are so called tech-savvy and even people in the tech industry. So, if they don't care despite them being able to understand the privacy issues, the general population which looks at these people for buying advice is certainly not going to care.
userbinator 5y ago
There's actually a pretty large market in used appliances that have been refurbished with all-new wear parts (seals, bushings, etc.) I don't think the manufacturers want to create dishwashers and other appliances that last decades anymore.
- mindslight 5y ago
  Care to elaborate? I've got a dream of someday making an aftermarket appliance control board that could be retrofitted into different types of appliances, offering smart features - Free firmware, Free app, automation, etc (obviously without all the surveillance/lockin bullshit). I'd love to hear what else is already out there.
perl4ever 5y ago
The fact that you are here, making this comment, as if there weren't any, proves there's no great market opportunity. Few people will seek out such things; instead they will continue to complain about how there aren't any. I'm not making a general comment; I bought a washer and dryer for the first time in my life a couple years ago, GE branded, and they have no wifi, bluetooth, or even any kind of electronic display. As it happens, I got them more for their dimensions fitting the space I had than anything else, as GE hasn't had the greatest reputation for reliability in recent years. But so far, they work fine.
jdeibele 5y ago
My brother-in-law bought a Speed Queen washer because it has relatively primitive technology. As I understand it, they're aimed more at commercial users or users who want to fix their machines themselves. https://speedqueen.com/ https://speedqueen.com/

01100011 5y ago

Personally I think I prefer devices which offload the UI to a smartphone. I was thinking of something like this years ago where you could use something like Bluetooth to push a web UI so devices like thermostats would no longer need to have a shitty UI for things like programming schedules. Unfortunately in this case the greed of the manufacturer hoping to monetize their UI has ruined an otherwise decent idea(although the device really should function on some basic level without a phone).

MBCook 5y ago
What happens in two or three years when they decide to stop updating the app and it no longer works on your phone? They couldn’t bother since there was no recurring revenue stream so you just have to buy a new dishwasher?
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  Or if Apple decides their devices can be .08mm thinner without Bluetooth?
  - msrenee 5y ago
    Then how would they sell their headphones?
    - taneq 5y ago
      New incompatible protocol, duh! :P
- 34679 5y ago
  I believe the other person was talking about having the devices serve up webpage UIs, so you wouldn't need their specific app, just a browser. A lot of makers do this with their 3D printers and CNC machines, as it avoids the cost and hassle of installing a display on the machine. Two of the more popular ones, for those interested: octoprint.org cnc.js.org

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> The display for these new machines had been removed, so the only way to tell when the machine was really finished was to... Guess what? Welll.... The display on my dishwasher technically exists. It is set on the top face of the panel, facing up into the counter, so it cannot be seen when the dishwasher is closed. I'm not sure who thought of this, but it must have been approved by multiple people to appear on a real, already-manufactured dishwasher. Every one of those people was apparently terrible at their job.

treis 5y ago
Mine is like that. Looks better, IMHO. There's a red light that's projected on the ground to tell you if it is running or not.

jay3ss 5y ago

This is an awful, consumer hostile trend. I have a Bose sound bar that requires an app, account, and internet and blue tooth connection just to change the settings. Luckily it has a remote so I can use it without any of those things, but it can only change the volume and power the device on/off. I only kept it because the sound is good and it was a gift.

evenw 5y ago

The default "happy path" for new Samsung televisions is to be set up through an app. A mandatory step is to allow background location tracking permissions.