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Ammonia is like hydrogen - not a fuel source but merely a fuel storage medium. Further we used to common use ammonia for refrigeration before Freon became a th

Ammonia is like hydrogen - not a fuel source but merely a fuel storage medium. Further we used to common use ammonia for refrigeration before Freon became a thing - the reason we don't use it for that except in very limited large scale applications, is that it's SUPER POISONOUS and prone to leaking and killing. So pushing ammonia is another example of solving one problem but creating 5-10 more problems which our society ALREADY KNOWS WILL HAPPEN - because we've been there before and abandoned it for safety, economic and environmental reasons. It's willful ignorance of history and science.

p1mrx 5y ago
If ammonia is safe enough for agricultural use, then it may also be sensible for other large-scale applications, like powering ships and industrial processes. You definitely wouldn't want it in your car though.
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  Well, gasoline isn't exactly a benign substance, either. It would be interesting to compare the number of people burned to death in gasoline fires to those poisoned by ammonia vapor. My gut tells me that gasoline is currently responsible for more fatalities, but I don't have any hard facts on that. Of course the number of ammonia deaths would go up to some degree if it were used in cars, but that would be offset by fewer gasoline deaths.
- AngryData 5y ago
  If by safe you mean one of the things farmers fear the most in an already dangerous job. Even as a kid working around farm equipment, silos, and all sorts of dangerous chems, I was warned to stay far away from any ammonia tanks, and farmers are never having a good time when they are hauling a tank of it. Tank full of pesticide? "Yeah go ahead and put some in a pop bottle and mix it with random shit you find in the barn and throw bugs in it" An ammonia tank? "Don't even go near it, especially if it is being used or being hauled."
jabl 5y ago
If we're gonna have an energy economy based on nitrogen fuels, I'd vote for the even spiffier hydrazine. What could possibly go wrong?
idlewords 5y ago
Ammonia is not super poisonous, just kind of poisonous. We routinely handle it in industrial amounts, and an ammonia leak is much less harmful than something like a hydrazine leak. Industrial production and consumption of ammonia is the basis of the fertilizer industry. There's not many hazardous chemicals we have more experience in handling safely in bulk than this stuff.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Of the 57,975 incidents that were reported, 54,989 (95%) involved the release of only one chemical. The top five chemicals associated with injury were carbon monoxide (2,364), ammonia (1,153), chlorine (763), hydrochloric acid (326), and sulfuric acid (318). Carbon monoxide and ammonia by far caused the most injuries, deaths, and evacuations. Chlorine, while not in the top 10 chemicals released, was in the top five chemicals associated with injury because of its hazardous properties.... In ammonia incidents, the industry with the highest frequency of injured persons was manufacturing of food, textile, and apparel (451 [39%] of 1,153 injured persons). The subsector food manufacturing had the highest number of injured persons and agriculture, forestry, fishing, and hunting had the second highest frequency of persons injured from ammonia releases. -- "Top Five Chemicals Resulting in Injuries from Acute Chemical Incidents — Hazardous Substances Emergency Events Surveillance, Nine States, 1999–2008", Ayana R. Anderson, MPH, Division of Toxicology and Human Health Sciences, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, CDC https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6402a6.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6402a6.htm Agricultural use of ammonia is strongly characterised by use in unconfined and well-ventilated spaces. Relatively few people are involved with its use, and those who are tend to be reasonably familiar with risks and precautions. It remains one of the top five most dangerous chemicals. Notably absent from that list are hydrocarbon fuels, despite their considerably wider use by an almost completely untrained cohort. Widespread use as a fuel would likely increase risk and exposure to ammonia, as well as its use within confined spaces in which the likelihood and impacts of accidental exposure would be greatly increased.
  - joe_the_user 5y ago
    Notably absent from that list are hydrocarbon fuels, Sure, but carbon monoxide is a product of burning fossil fuels, so the fossil fuel cycle has it's poison dangers.

p1mrx 5y ago

If ammonia is safe enough for agricultural use, then it may also be sensible for other large-scale applications, like powering ships and industrial processes. You definitely wouldn't want it in your car though.

Turing_Machine 5y ago
Well, gasoline isn't exactly a benign substance, either. It would be interesting to compare the number of people burned to death in gasoline fires to those poisoned by ammonia vapor. My gut tells me that gasoline is currently responsible for more fatalities, but I don't have any hard facts on that. Of course the number of ammonia deaths would go up to some degree if it were used in cars, but that would be offset by fewer gasoline deaths.
AngryData 5y ago
If by safe you mean one of the things farmers fear the most in an already dangerous job. Even as a kid working around farm equipment, silos, and all sorts of dangerous chems, I was warned to stay far away from any ammonia tanks, and farmers are never having a good time when they are hauling a tank of it. Tank full of pesticide? "Yeah go ahead and put some in a pop bottle and mix it with random shit you find in the barn and throw bugs in it" An ammonia tank? "Don't even go near it, especially if it is being used or being hauled."

jabl 5y ago

If we're gonna have an energy economy based on nitrogen fuels, I'd vote for the even spiffier hydrazine. What could possibly go wrong?

idlewords 5y ago

Ammonia is not super poisonous, just kind of poisonous. We routinely handle it in industrial amounts, and an ammonia leak is much less harmful than something like a hydrazine leak. Industrial production and consumption of ammonia is the basis of the fertilizer industry. There's not many hazardous chemicals we have more experience in handling safely in bulk than this stuff.

dredmorbius 5y ago
Of the 57,975 incidents that were reported, 54,989 (95%) involved the release of only one chemical. The top five chemicals associated with injury were carbon monoxide (2,364), ammonia (1,153), chlorine (763), hydrochloric acid (326), and sulfuric acid (318). Carbon monoxide and ammonia by far caused the most injuries, deaths, and evacuations. Chlorine, while not in the top 10 chemicals released, was in the top five chemicals associated with injury because of its hazardous properties.... In ammonia incidents, the industry with the highest frequency of injured persons was manufacturing of food, textile, and apparel (451 [39%] of 1,153 injured persons). The subsector food manufacturing had the highest number of injured persons and agriculture, forestry, fishing, and hunting had the second highest frequency of persons injured from ammonia releases. -- "Top Five Chemicals Resulting in Injuries from Acute Chemical Incidents — Hazardous Substances Emergency Events Surveillance, Nine States, 1999–2008", Ayana R. Anderson, MPH, Division of Toxicology and Human Health Sciences, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, CDC https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6402a6.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6402a6.htm Agricultural use of ammonia is strongly characterised by use in unconfined and well-ventilated spaces. Relatively few people are involved with its use, and those who are tend to be reasonably familiar with risks and precautions. It remains one of the top five most dangerous chemicals. Notably absent from that list are hydrocarbon fuels, despite their considerably wider use by an almost completely untrained cohort. Widespread use as a fuel would likely increase risk and exposure to ammonia, as well as its use within confined spaces in which the likelihood and impacts of accidental exposure would be greatly increased.
- joe_the_user 5y ago
  Notably absent from that list are hydrocarbon fuels, Sure, but carbon monoxide is a product of burning fossil fuels, so the fossil fuel cycle has it's poison dangers.