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An IQ is just a number coming out of a test. Whether or not that correlates to something useful for humanity, or even the individual being tested, is a differe

An IQ is just a number coming out of a test. Whether or not that correlates to something useful for humanity, or even the individual being tested, is a different question. Surely the majority of useful discoveries are made by people with above-average IQs, but would juicing the numbers through eugenics really make much of a difference? How many extra Isaac Newtons would it take to make controlled nuclear fusion work? Because if we don't have an estimate for that, why would we expect an intelligence-focused eugenics program to be useful at all?

notahacker 5y ago
Not to mention the regression to the mean issue discussed in the article, and the slight problem of attracting women aware that they have a very high IQ to trade career success or other personal preferences for being the baby making machine for some billionaire's experiment. It's not like they're currently disproportionately likely to choose not to have kids because they can't afford them
- PKop 5y ago
  >to trade career success or other personal preferences for being the baby making machine for some billionaire's experiment Why is it assumed that this isn't a more attractive proposition compared the alternative. Certainly there would be many, if not most or all, that would be willing to make this choice. The point you are implying is that "career success and personal goals minus children" > "making smart babies and being a mother"...where ">" can be more enjoyable or fulfilling. It's not clear that this is true. Part of "baby making" means leveraging that IQ in a productive way to raise strong, intelligent children, so it would not be going to waste.
  - netflixandkill 5y ago
    When affluent and educated societies worldwide show declining birthrates and increasing age at reproduction, it can be taken as a strong indicator of women's and family's preferences for fulfilling lives at demographic scale.
  - me_im_counting 5y ago
    I’m a woman, and none of my smartest friends are interested in having more than 2 children. A few aren’t interested in having any. I’m the weirdo who wants 3, but I don’t see why I should be part of someone’s experiments when I can find a high quality mate on my own anyway.
    - Enginerrrd 5y ago
      Yeah, it's interesting, humans already HAVE an incredibly complex sexual selection mechanism. There's all kinds of things that you are capable of selecting for without necessarily even realizing what you're doing. That selection pressure likely already includes the relevant things such a billionaire might care about, and many other things they can't even quantify, which likely includes genetic compatibility. The system we have has worked pretty well for a long time. It's hard to optimize such a complex and fuzzy thing.
    - civilized 5y ago
      So maybe the billionaire should enact his horrific eugenics experiment by creating a dating app to help women like you find high-quality men who want lots of kids. He'd even make money, because... well, be honest, how much would you pay for that if it really worked?
  - notahacker 5y ago
    > Why is it assumed that this isn't a more attractive proposition compared the alternative. Certainly there would be many, if not most or all, that would be willing to make this choice. I'm not sure why you're asking me this when your opening post in this exchange starts by noting low fertility amongst highly educated women. Smart women generally aren't short of offers from smart men to make babies with them (and the smart men are usually pretty wealthy). If "many, if not most or all" wanted to have lots and lots of kids instead of being academics or lawyers or rocket scientists, they'd already be doing it. I don't think a creepy eugenics foundation that's obsessed with the IQ of their kids makes the proposition more attractive even if they're paying enough for a slightly bigger mansion and the husband to afford to retire too.
    - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
      The little secret is that the highly successful do have many children. Like, Elon Musk has six kids. It's only a class of upper-middle-class workers who, like high-ranking court eunuchs, valorize work over family.
      - notahacker 5y ago
        Some highly successful people have lots of children. But Elon Musk is a little bit too rich to make his decisions on partners and kids based on whether some poorer billionaire offers a stipend. My point is upper middle classes intellectuals won't be interested trading those decisions for the money either
        FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        Yeah, the billionaire stipend idea isn't realistic. I assume it wasn't supposed to be. Seems to me that the upper middle class is motivated at least as much by prestige as they are by money, family, or anything else.
PKop 5y ago
>why would we expect an intelligence-focused eugenics program to be useful at all? Are there no uses of a having a higher population average intelligence besides "does it immediately produce nuclear fusion"? Is higher average intelligence good for many many many other things besides producing fusion? Of course it is, this is an absurd premise. Also, where did nuclear fission get invented? Are there correlated differences in IQ of people from this region? Did nuclear fission get invented in areas with low average IQ? "An IQ is a just a number coming out of a test". Oh, but it does correlate with other group-wide achievements that aren't just numbers coming out of a test, does it not? >Surely the majority of useful discoveries are made by people with above-average IQs How it is not obvious then that increasing the average would also increase the level of the outliers and their ceiling?
- deleted 5y ago
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notahacker 5y ago

Not to mention the regression to the mean issue discussed in the article, and the slight problem of attracting women aware that they have a very high IQ to trade career success or other personal preferences for being the baby making machine for some billionaire's experiment. It's not like they're currently disproportionately likely to choose not to have kids because they can't afford them

PKop 5y ago
>to trade career success or other personal preferences for being the baby making machine for some billionaire's experiment Why is it assumed that this isn't a more attractive proposition compared the alternative. Certainly there would be many, if not most or all, that would be willing to make this choice. The point you are implying is that "career success and personal goals minus children" > "making smart babies and being a mother"...where ">" can be more enjoyable or fulfilling. It's not clear that this is true. Part of "baby making" means leveraging that IQ in a productive way to raise strong, intelligent children, so it would not be going to waste.
- netflixandkill 5y ago
  When affluent and educated societies worldwide show declining birthrates and increasing age at reproduction, it can be taken as a strong indicator of women's and family's preferences for fulfilling lives at demographic scale.
- me_im_counting 5y ago
  I’m a woman, and none of my smartest friends are interested in having more than 2 children. A few aren’t interested in having any. I’m the weirdo who wants 3, but I don’t see why I should be part of someone’s experiments when I can find a high quality mate on my own anyway.
  - Enginerrrd 5y ago
    Yeah, it's interesting, humans already HAVE an incredibly complex sexual selection mechanism. There's all kinds of things that you are capable of selecting for without necessarily even realizing what you're doing. That selection pressure likely already includes the relevant things such a billionaire might care about, and many other things they can't even quantify, which likely includes genetic compatibility. The system we have has worked pretty well for a long time. It's hard to optimize such a complex and fuzzy thing.
  - civilized 5y ago
    So maybe the billionaire should enact his horrific eugenics experiment by creating a dating app to help women like you find high-quality men who want lots of kids. He'd even make money, because... well, be honest, how much would you pay for that if it really worked?
- notahacker 5y ago
  > Why is it assumed that this isn't a more attractive proposition compared the alternative. Certainly there would be many, if not most or all, that would be willing to make this choice. I'm not sure why you're asking me this when your opening post in this exchange starts by noting low fertility amongst highly educated women. Smart women generally aren't short of offers from smart men to make babies with them (and the smart men are usually pretty wealthy). If "many, if not most or all" wanted to have lots and lots of kids instead of being academics or lawyers or rocket scientists, they'd already be doing it. I don't think a creepy eugenics foundation that's obsessed with the IQ of their kids makes the proposition more attractive even if they're paying enough for a slightly bigger mansion and the husband to afford to retire too.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    The little secret is that the highly successful do have many children. Like, Elon Musk has six kids. It's only a class of upper-middle-class workers who, like high-ranking court eunuchs, valorize work over family.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      Some highly successful people have lots of children. But Elon Musk is a little bit too rich to make his decisions on partners and kids based on whether some poorer billionaire offers a stipend. My point is upper middle classes intellectuals won't be interested trading those decisions for the money either
      - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        Yeah, the billionaire stipend idea isn't realistic. I assume it wasn't supposed to be. Seems to me that the upper middle class is motivated at least as much by prestige as they are by money, family, or anything else.

PKop 5y ago

>why would we expect an intelligence-focused eugenics program to be useful at all? Are there no uses of a having a higher population average intelligence besides "does it immediately produce nuclear fusion"? Is higher average intelligence good for many many many other things besides producing fusion? Of course it is, this is an absurd premise. Also, where did nuclear fission get invented? Are there correlated differences in IQ of people from this region? Did nuclear fission get invented in areas with low average IQ? "An IQ is a just a number coming out of a test". Oh, but it does correlate with other group-wide achievements that aren't just numbers coming out of a test, does it not? >Surely the majority of useful discoveries are made by people with above-average IQs How it is not obvious then that increasing the average would also increase the level of the outliers and their ceiling?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]