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Chinese ports are automated. American ones much less so. China has much less resistance to automation from unions.

arcticbull 5y ago
Well, in part because independent trade unions are illegal in China. And by "independent" I mean not a mouthpiece of the CCP. This is partly what I meant by reshaping the economy, though. Unions are there to push back against capital, but the adversarial capital v. labor system only really makes sense in a world where there's at least as much work to be done as people. Of course all else being equal unions are going to look out for their members and their members jobs. It's that or the unemployment lines. However, the society of the future simply won't have those jobs. It will require some new and different social contract. UBI perhaps is an alpha.
legulere 5y ago
As a European, unions being against automation seems like a typical anti-union propaganda point. Can you show me some examples where unions acted out against automatisation?
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  Here it is from the horse's mouth, the newspaper of the ILA - International Longshoreman's Union: https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-automation-draws-ilwu-backlash/ https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-auto... "TTI would become the fourth automated container terminal in Southern California. Total Terminals International’s (TTI’s) decision this week to automate its 385-acre Pier T terminal in Long Beach sets up a classic struggle between terminal operator employers and the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU). "The union opposes the project on the grounds it will eliminate some dockworker jobs, but employers say automation is needed to increase capacity and keep the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles competitive." [...] ILWU Local 10 in 2019 tried unsuccessfully to convince the city of Los Angeles to block a construction project for the APM Terminals automation project. Here is the AP: https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 The uproar comes as a facility operated for Denmark’s Moller-Maersk by APM Terminals plans to use the battery-powered, self-guided cargo handling equipment, which APM contends is a response to the ports’ clean air rules. [...] Union members, however, fear the equipment will spread to all terminals and hundreds of jobs will be lost. They contend APM could use manned electric vehicles. Las Vegas Culinary union strike: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequality-union-automation_n_5ae043f9e4b061c0bfa32e0c https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequal... https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las-vegas-workers-vote-to-strike-over-fears-robots-are-taking-their-jobs/ https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las... Over 50,000 union workers in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, are set to go on strike if new contracts are not settled. One of the main drivers for the strike action is the fear that robots will gradually displace human operators. The Culinary Union is just one of many labor unions grappling with how to respond to the spread of automation and artificial intelligence – whether driverless trucks or lifting and sorting machines at warehouses. Alongside the fears automation poses to workers, there are concerns that it is also undermining the very organizations designed to support them: labor unions. Harry Katz, former dean of the Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations, said automation has reduced unions’ might in many industries by shrinking their membership and making it easier for companies to break or survive a strike. Organized labor is likely to lose further power and membership as a result of the ongoing wave of automation, he said. * Boeing machinists' union: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussle-over-223245244.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussl... Union leaders are concerned about a Boeing campaign known as “Quality Transformation,” which relies on automated processes such as robotic riveting and precision machining to cut down on manufacturing defects. Boeing says such processes make airplane assembly more “mistake-proof.” Aero Mechanic said Boeing laid out its plans and their potential effect on quality-assurance jobs in November. “Per the PowerPoint Boeing presented to our union, Boeing estimates their plan will impact 451 QA jobs next year and potentially a similar amount in 2020,” the newspaper reported. “This will not only place a heavier burden on our mechanics but will also eliminate the second set of eyes on thousands of work packages.” * 1953-55 UAW strikes at Ford over automation see this historical case study: http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casestudy1.htm http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casest... Rising to speak in support of the automation resolution, Alfred Granakis, Local 1250’s convention delegate, stated, “I just want to say a couple of words on this because we have got 78 people in Cleveland doing the work of 770 people from the Rouge and we are out-producing them with 78 people. . . . I am representing more machines than I am men in Cleveland. The thing I would like to see is this changed just a little bit.” He then chided UAW President Reuther: “I wish the Executive Board would be instructed to formulate a policy and inform the local union affected by it.” Reuther responded, “We are completely aware and fully conscious of the problem which the resolution covers. . . . The Ford engine plant is the best example today where they have whole batteries of machines with a fellow on one end and another fellow half a block away with the whole thing mechanized.” After the UAW convention Granakis again urgently wrote Reuther, “As you are well aware, the problem of production standards is one of a recurring nature and needs eternal vigilance, particularly with the reactionary Ford Motor Company.” In UAW Local 1250’s contract negotiations, automation continued to prove the most intractable issue. “As for the problem of Automation,” Granakis told the UAW President, “except for saying ‘no’ and insisting on more men on the job, I have taken no other position until I hear from you.” In order to capture the Ford negotiators’ attention, and possibly Reuther’s too, Local 1250 leaders sought and received formal approval for a strike authorization request from the Cleveland area UAW regional director. In addition to high rates of absenteeism and numerous shop-floor grievances, [..] an overwhelming majority (almost 90 percent) of the engine-plant workers voted to authorize a strike in the midst of collective bargaining over automation problems. In 1953 the Ford Cleveland engine plant and foundry had four unauthorized work stoppages; in 1954 there were two unauthorized walkouts. These wildcat strikes idled 1,970 men and resulted in 8,439 lost man-hours. These walkouts comprised the tip of the iceberg of worker discontent over automation.
  - Jeff_Brown 5y ago
    Solid evidence that many US and at least one Danish union behave that way. It leaves me wondering whether German unions might behave different. (I know their legal environment is different, but I don't know how that changes their incentives.)
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      > It leaves me wondering whether German unions might behave different A lot of moderns don't understand the unique role of Germany in the historical pantheon of left wing movements. Germany has historically been the hotbed of socialist movements, and has a long history of a very strong, well-organized, violent, militant hard left insurgencies. If you were to talk to most communists or socialists in 1900 and ask them what the first communist nation would be, they would answer "Germany". That was always the prize and it was their power base. So Germany developed a number of techniques to fight against these movements, including codetermination, or the idea that unions be represented in corporate decision making which would give them a stake in the overall health of the firm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany It's no accident that the first iteration of codetermination laws were adopted in 1848, and their modern incarnation goes to 1951, at the beginning of the cold war. Note that codetermination is the exact opposite of US labor law, which bans management from being union members and thus is virtually designed to create or intensify animosity between non-supervisory and supervisory workers, which frankly seems like a dumb and arbitrary distinction, basically designed to create conflict within the firm. This also explains why US firms are much more resistant to unionization efforts while at the same time they lead the world in things like stock grants to workers, and the U.S. has a large number of worker owned firms as well.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > unions being against automation seems like a typical anti-union propaganda point. Yes, when you systematically support terrible ideas, of course your support for terrible ideas will be a common attack against you. What's the surprise there?
  - legulere 5y ago
    It's just that in Germany you more often hear demands for people to be requalified to do other jobs or to send people earlier in pension than outright opposition to progress. In general unions seem to be very interested here in the well-being of the companies, because that helps them get high wages and secure jobs. On the other hand companies also seem way more fine with collaboration with unions (not that there is no conflict either).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Trade unions in China are controlled by the party and are more likely to promote business interests than worker interests. So the workers don’t really have much say in the manner. There were lots of awkward conversations when my job in China told all the foreigners that they had to pay the Trade Union dues but would get no benefits from it.

Well, in part because independent trade unions are illegal in China. And by "independent" I mean not a mouthpiece of the CCP. This is partly what I meant by reshaping the economy, though. Unions are there to push back against capital, but the adversarial capital v. labor system only really makes sense in a world where there's at least as much work to be done as people. Of course all else being equal unions are going to look out for their members and their members jobs. It's that or the unemployment lines. However, the society of the future simply won't have those jobs. It will require some new and different social contract. UBI perhaps is an alpha.

legulere 5y ago

As a European, unions being against automation seems like a typical anti-union propaganda point. Can you show me some examples where unions acted out against automatisation?

rsj_hn 5y ago
Here it is from the horse's mouth, the newspaper of the ILA - International Longshoreman's Union: https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-automation-draws-ilwu-backlash/ https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-auto... "TTI would become the fourth automated container terminal in Southern California. Total Terminals International’s (TTI’s) decision this week to automate its 385-acre Pier T terminal in Long Beach sets up a classic struggle between terminal operator employers and the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU). "The union opposes the project on the grounds it will eliminate some dockworker jobs, but employers say automation is needed to increase capacity and keep the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles competitive." [...] ILWU Local 10 in 2019 tried unsuccessfully to convince the city of Los Angeles to block a construction project for the APM Terminals automation project. Here is the AP: https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 The uproar comes as a facility operated for Denmark’s Moller-Maersk by APM Terminals plans to use the battery-powered, self-guided cargo handling equipment, which APM contends is a response to the ports’ clean air rules. [...] Union members, however, fear the equipment will spread to all terminals and hundreds of jobs will be lost. They contend APM could use manned electric vehicles. Las Vegas Culinary union strike: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequality-union-automation_n_5ae043f9e4b061c0bfa32e0c https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequal... https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las-vegas-workers-vote-to-strike-over-fears-robots-are-taking-their-jobs/ https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las... Over 50,000 union workers in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, are set to go on strike if new contracts are not settled. One of the main drivers for the strike action is the fear that robots will gradually displace human operators. The Culinary Union is just one of many labor unions grappling with how to respond to the spread of automation and artificial intelligence – whether driverless trucks or lifting and sorting machines at warehouses. Alongside the fears automation poses to workers, there are concerns that it is also undermining the very organizations designed to support them: labor unions. Harry Katz, former dean of the Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations, said automation has reduced unions’ might in many industries by shrinking their membership and making it easier for companies to break or survive a strike. Organized labor is likely to lose further power and membership as a result of the ongoing wave of automation, he said. * Boeing machinists' union: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussle-over-223245244.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussl... Union leaders are concerned about a Boeing campaign known as “Quality Transformation,” which relies on automated processes such as robotic riveting and precision machining to cut down on manufacturing defects. Boeing says such processes make airplane assembly more “mistake-proof.” Aero Mechanic said Boeing laid out its plans and their potential effect on quality-assurance jobs in November. “Per the PowerPoint Boeing presented to our union, Boeing estimates their plan will impact 451 QA jobs next year and potentially a similar amount in 2020,” the newspaper reported. “This will not only place a heavier burden on our mechanics but will also eliminate the second set of eyes on thousands of work packages.” * 1953-55 UAW strikes at Ford over automation see this historical case study: http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casestudy1.htm http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casest... Rising to speak in support of the automation resolution, Alfred Granakis, Local 1250’s convention delegate, stated, “I just want to say a couple of words on this because we have got 78 people in Cleveland doing the work of 770 people from the Rouge and we are out-producing them with 78 people. . . . I am representing more machines than I am men in Cleveland. The thing I would like to see is this changed just a little bit.” He then chided UAW President Reuther: “I wish the Executive Board would be instructed to formulate a policy and inform the local union affected by it.” Reuther responded, “We are completely aware and fully conscious of the problem which the resolution covers. . . . The Ford engine plant is the best example today where they have whole batteries of machines with a fellow on one end and another fellow half a block away with the whole thing mechanized.” After the UAW convention Granakis again urgently wrote Reuther, “As you are well aware, the problem of production standards is one of a recurring nature and needs eternal vigilance, particularly with the reactionary Ford Motor Company.” In UAW Local 1250’s contract negotiations, automation continued to prove the most intractable issue. “As for the problem of Automation,” Granakis told the UAW President, “except for saying ‘no’ and insisting on more men on the job, I have taken no other position until I hear from you.” In order to capture the Ford negotiators’ attention, and possibly Reuther’s too, Local 1250 leaders sought and received formal approval for a strike authorization request from the Cleveland area UAW regional director. In addition to high rates of absenteeism and numerous shop-floor grievances, [..] an overwhelming majority (almost 90 percent) of the engine-plant workers voted to authorize a strike in the midst of collective bargaining over automation problems. In 1953 the Ford Cleveland engine plant and foundry had four unauthorized work stoppages; in 1954 there were two unauthorized walkouts. These wildcat strikes idled 1,970 men and resulted in 8,439 lost man-hours. These walkouts comprised the tip of the iceberg of worker discontent over automation.
- Jeff_Brown 5y ago
  Solid evidence that many US and at least one Danish union behave that way. It leaves me wondering whether German unions might behave different. (I know their legal environment is different, but I don't know how that changes their incentives.)
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > It leaves me wondering whether German unions might behave different A lot of moderns don't understand the unique role of Germany in the historical pantheon of left wing movements. Germany has historically been the hotbed of socialist movements, and has a long history of a very strong, well-organized, violent, militant hard left insurgencies. If you were to talk to most communists or socialists in 1900 and ask them what the first communist nation would be, they would answer "Germany". That was always the prize and it was their power base. So Germany developed a number of techniques to fight against these movements, including codetermination, or the idea that unions be represented in corporate decision making which would give them a stake in the overall health of the firm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany It's no accident that the first iteration of codetermination laws were adopted in 1848, and their modern incarnation goes to 1951, at the beginning of the cold war. Note that codetermination is the exact opposite of US labor law, which bans management from being union members and thus is virtually designed to create or intensify animosity between non-supervisory and supervisory workers, which frankly seems like a dumb and arbitrary distinction, basically designed to create conflict within the firm. This also explains why US firms are much more resistant to unionization efforts while at the same time they lead the world in things like stock grants to workers, and the U.S. has a large number of worker owned firms as well.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> unions being against automation seems like a typical anti-union propaganda point. Yes, when you systematically support terrible ideas, of course your support for terrible ideas will be a common attack against you. What's the surprise there?
- legulere 5y ago
  It's just that in Germany you more often hear demands for people to be requalified to do other jobs or to send people earlier in pension than outright opposition to progress. In general unions seem to be very interested here in the well-being of the companies, because that helps them get high wages and secure jobs. On the other hand companies also seem way more fine with collaboration with unions (not that there is no conflict either).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

Trade unions in China are controlled by the party and are more likely to promote business interests than worker interests. So the workers don’t really have much say in the manner. There were lots of awkward conversations when my job in China told all the foreigners that they had to pay the Trade Union dues but would get no benefits from it.