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Can we open up a broader discussion about Portugal's culture of work? On one hand this sends a message that Portugal cares about work/life balance for everyday

Can we open up a broader discussion about Portugal's culture of work? On one hand this sends a message that Portugal cares about work/life balance for everyday citizens. On the other my general impression of Portugal's economy is that it's one of the weaker members of the EU. High debt, not a huge driver of innovation, wealth, etc. These are all just loosely held beliefs kicking around in my head. I'm not attached to any of them or sure that they are even accurate.

rhizome 5y ago
Lotta weasel words in there, maybe describe how you acquired these loosely held "beliefs?" Someone's gotta be last, but is it actually bad there, or is the problem academic and significant only because someone (you, in this case) describes it as such? I'm getting a distinct "yo dawg, I herd..." vibe.
pokstad 5y ago
I spent years making careful decisions and investments in my career so that I could work a flexible and remote job. I’ve worked in places where most of the workers are incapable of competently working asynchronously and being results driven. Laws like this seem to ridiculous and ignoring the reality of work.
BaRRaKID 5y ago
You're partially right. Portugal is in the middle of a work culture change. For the last maybe 5 or so years, many tech companies have opened offices here, and with that they brought a better work/life balance, better salaries, better everything, for people working in those companies. On the other hand a typical "old school" Portuguese boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed. All this for a minimum wage of 665€. Regarding the Portuguese economy, we are somewhere in the middle of Europe. We have many industries where we are probably the best in the world, but they are smaller less flashy industries. Namely things like wine, cork, shoes, ceramics (as in toilets), glass, etc. But we have many financial issues, manly due to huge amount of corruption in government and financial institutions. If you're interested in those search for Operation Marquis and Face Oculta scandal. Regarding this law in particular, it was made so that people that are working from home due to COVID can log off an not have people calling for extra work after hours. It has been a real issue. For me personally I've been working average 10 hours a day the last two years.
- jointpdf 5y ago
  > ...boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed. You were describing US work culture perfectly until the 21 days of vacation part. In the US you are legally entitled to 0 vacation days (also, 0 days for maternity leave), though 10 is more standard. Our minimum wage is about the same ($7.25), and has not changed since 2009 ($7.25 today is equivalent to ~$5.50 in 2009).
  - m0zg 5y ago
    Hardly anyone pays the minimum wage though. We're at a point where "McDonalds" type jobs start at easily twice that.
    - ev1 5y ago
      I still see federal minimum or close to it for fast food when I go through smaller places (central, midwest, etc). "McDonalds" in cities starts at $15-25/hr because those cities set a higher minimum wage.
      - sgerenser 5y ago
        Not true. I live in North Carolina where the minimum wage is still the federal minimum wage ($7.25). In the rural parts of the state (low COL) McDonalds is still advertising $10/hr, and in the area I live it’s $12-$14. Many stores and fast food places are advertising $15 and higher.
- vasco 5y ago
  Minimum wage in Portugal is €775 when dividing the yearly gross salary. The €665 figure is a misrepresentation in an international forum like this because Portugal pays salaries 14x a year instead of 12x.
arijo 5y ago
The main reason Portugal does not have a competitive per capita GDP in the euro area is the fact that the older generations have, on average, very low instruction and education levels and thus are not able to be as productive as their northern European same generation citizens. There has been a big change in the last 20 years because of a big bet on higher education, science and technology. The new generations can compete with and match the productivity levels of any European citizen of the same age cohort. I hope this helps you better understand Portuguese economics because its impact on Portugal’s general wealth will become evident to anyone in the following decades.
- adventured 5y ago
  Wouldn't Portugal's GDP per capita have been increasing noticeably over the last few decades if for 20 years an influx of improvement had been occurring with new entrants to the labor force? Inflation adjusted Portugal's GDP per capita has hardly moved in three decades. In nominal terms it hasn't increased in 13 years, since the peak before the great recession (23% inflation adjusted decline over that time). By comparison Czechia was far worse off than Portugal 30 years ago and now has a higher per capita figure. Slovakia is likely to similarly overtake Portugal soon as well. The same is true of the Baltic states, all of which will overtake Portugal (Estonia already has). That doesn't seem like something that should be happening if Portugal were seeing a big positive change for decades.
  - arijo3 5y ago
    As I started by saying: "The main reason Portugal does not have a competitive per capita GDP in the euro area .." The huge investment that has been made in higher education, science and technology took a whole generation for this effort to start displaying its results. The number of STEM PHDs for example, is today orders of magnitude higher than it was 20 years ago - things like this do take time and do not reflect on GDP data immediately. And yes we're starting to see its effects, though not at the level that I expect will be obvious to everyone who still thinks of Portuguese people through the prejudice resulting for many years of low productivity caused by high levels of illiteracy. Things are changing, see the example below: Remote raises $150m and becomes Portugal’s fifth unicorn - https://sifted.eu/articles/remote-unicorn/ https://sifted.eu/articles/remote-unicorn/ Actually, I have a friend from Slovakia, and what he tells me is exactly the opposite you have commented above - that the education system in Slovakia is today much worth than it was 10 years ago. Anyways, I'm seeing a lot of IT companies (local and foreign) being created and investing in Portugal and I invite you to come here to see for yourself how a big bet in education can have huge payoffs on the economical development of a country.
13415 5y ago
As a foreigner living and working as a long-term resident in Portugal (with a Portuguese salary and paying Portuguese taxes, of course), my impression is that the problems are systemic and long-term. There is no overnight solution but things are slowly improving. Salaries are still abysmal so many highly skilled workers migrate outside of Portugal. At the same time there is a ton of favoritism which leads to an abundant amount of incompetence in leadership positions, resulting in low motivation. People tend to work a lot, often they are forced to work longer than official work hours and there are long lunch breaks, but they do not always work very efficiently. My impression is that client-related businesses and the public sector (funcionários) are overstaffed. This is especially noticeable in shops, where there are often 3 or 4 people standing around with nothing to do until one of them draws some invisible short straw and takes care of you. I don't think there is an easy recipe to change systemic problems and I don't have any quirks with the current government. They're doing a fine job. Portugal used to be a rural society and have textile industry. I doubt it's going to turn into a high tech innovation hub anytime soon, but everyone is trying. The currently biggest problem are the increasing rents and stagnating salaries, as well as the brain drain mentioned above. But perhaps the biggest problem is favoritism and very pronounced social hierarchies, I've heard horror stories about psychopathic bosses. I've even met such people at university so I believe they have a grain of truth in them.
- jrib 5y ago
  I'm curious: if your don't mind sharing, what attracted you to living in Portugal as a foreigner?
  - 13415 5y ago
    Pure coincidence, I got a exceptionally good postdoc grant there that fit my research profile and decided to stay after it ran out. I really came to like the country and its people the longer I've stayed.
- EL_Loco 5y ago
  Sorry to ask, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but do you live there by yourself or do you have a family? I have a wife and two kids, and I'm trying to figure out how much does it cost to live in Portugal, per month. I'm planning to move there, not now but in the short future. Could you give me an idea of the cost, if you're familiar with this situation (family of four). Thanks in advance.
andrepd 5y ago
There is not problem with the "culture of work" if by that you're implying people there are lazy and don't work as hard as in richer countries. The fact is that "hard work" or productivity is entirely uncorrelated with compensation. Simply the compensation of labour in a market is the equilibrium value, which because of the power imbalance between worker and owner means the least value the owner can get away with paying (or minimum wage), and in Portugal owners can get away with paying less than in Germany, and in Serbia less than Portugal, and in Bangladesh less than Serbia. Nothing to do with intrinsic work culture. EDIT: Also the Euro is a disaster for countries like Portugal. To be clear: joining the EU was excellent (Portugal is a totally different country now than it was before we joined), but joining the Euro was disastrous. It bound together countries like Portugal and Germany to the same monetary policy, even though they had/have completely opposite interests. Well guess who had it their way x) Despite this massive crippling of sovereignty, which reared its ugly head when the time came to handle the European crisis in 2011, Portugal reaped no benefit from the monetary union. Closer integration or common fiscal policy never happened, and Portugal was stuck in a monetary union without a political union (the EU is barely a democracy, but that's a whole nother can of worms). Germany meanwhile benefits fabulously from its position as the foremost surplus country in Europe, in monetary union with comparatively weak economies.
- jp57 5y ago
  > but joining the Euro was disastrous. It bound together countries like Portugal and Germany to the same monetary policy, even though they had/have completely opposite interests. I've often wondered about this. The US Dollar binds together poor states Alabama and rich states like California, but I don't think I've heard people arguing that two states being on a common currency contributes to the impoverishment of Alabama. I'm sure there are important differences between the Euro and the Dollar that account for this difference in perspective, but I don't know what they are.
  - InspiredIdiot 5y ago
    I assume it comes down to the "monetary union without a political union" part. I think you could make some of the same arguments for the United States but Alabama and California have a stronger political union so there is less (but certainly still some) chance for California to exploit the relationship by tilting the monitory policy to favor itself. Having said that, I don't understand how EU-level policy is set. Are EU parliamentarians even directly elected?
baby 5y ago
One question is: can your people be happy if you don’t have the best economy? Do you need to constantly grow and produce more value to be sustainable?
belter 5y ago
For an even better example look at the different German states. Bavaria with its rich BMW factories versus Saarland where anybody who does not work in Luxembourg is poor as a mouse. Same German population, same working culture and methods, but completely different outcomes. One state is rich another one shows a deficit and there has been no job creation. If the German model is so good why cant Germany reproduce it in every part of the country? At the same time Volkswagen Autoeuropa an automotive assembly plant, located in the city of Palmela, near Lisbon, showed higher productivity than some sites in Germany. The problem with "working culture" analysis is that they miss the underlying processes, patterns and local constrains most teams are forced to work it.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Well, that's one problem... another is that people often use it as an excuse for thinly veiled prejudice.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > If the German model is so good why cant Germany reproduce it in every part of the country? Capital and supply chains are not spread evenly across the country... and that's a major factor. If culture was the only thing then you'd expect people at the top of a mountain to have the same level of life as someone living in a city. That's obviously not going to happen in any case.
blitzar 5y ago
On one hand they care about work/life balance for everyday citizens. On the other hand they have a lazy and unproductive workforce.
- ptmvp 5y ago
  Unproductive bit is true mostly due to the low value added nature of most jobs. The lazy thing is a tired, prejudiced, stereotype. Unless you also consider countries like Japan who work similar (but less) annual hours to be 'lazy'.[0] [0]https://data.oecd.org/chart/6wmc https://data.oecd.org/chart/6wmc

rhizome 5y ago

Lotta weasel words in there, maybe describe how you acquired these loosely held "beliefs?" Someone's gotta be last, but is it actually bad there, or is the problem academic and significant only because someone (you, in this case) describes it as such? I'm getting a distinct "yo dawg, I herd..." vibe.

pokstad 5y ago

I spent years making careful decisions and investments in my career so that I could work a flexible and remote job. I’ve worked in places where most of the workers are incapable of competently working asynchronously and being results driven. Laws like this seem to ridiculous and ignoring the reality of work.

BaRRaKID 5y ago

You're partially right. Portugal is in the middle of a work culture change. For the last maybe 5 or so years, many tech companies have opened offices here, and with that they brought a better work/life balance, better salaries, better everything, for people working in those companies. On the other hand a typical "old school" Portuguese boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed. All this for a minimum wage of 665€. Regarding the Portuguese economy, we are somewhere in the middle of Europe. We have many industries where we are probably the best in the world, but they are smaller less flashy industries. Namely things like wine, cork, shoes, ceramics (as in toilets), glass, etc. But we have many financial issues, manly due to huge amount of corruption in government and financial institutions. If you're interested in those search for Operation Marquis and Face Oculta scandal. Regarding this law in particular, it was made so that people that are working from home due to COVID can log off an not have people calling for extra work after hours. It has been a real issue. For me personally I've been working average 10 hours a day the last two years.

jointpdf 5y ago
> ...boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed. You were describing US work culture perfectly until the 21 days of vacation part. In the US you are legally entitled to 0 vacation days (also, 0 days for maternity leave), though 10 is more standard. Our minimum wage is about the same ($7.25), and has not changed since 2009 ($7.25 today is equivalent to ~$5.50 in 2009).
- m0zg 5y ago
  Hardly anyone pays the minimum wage though. We're at a point where "McDonalds" type jobs start at easily twice that.
  - ev1 5y ago
    I still see federal minimum or close to it for fast food when I go through smaller places (central, midwest, etc). "McDonalds" in cities starts at $15-25/hr because those cities set a higher minimum wage.
    - sgerenser 5y ago
      Not true. I live in North Carolina where the minimum wage is still the federal minimum wage ($7.25). In the rural parts of the state (low COL) McDonalds is still advertising $10/hr, and in the area I live it’s $12-$14. Many stores and fast food places are advertising $15 and higher.
vasco 5y ago
Minimum wage in Portugal is €775 when dividing the yearly gross salary. The €665 figure is a misrepresentation in an international forum like this because Portugal pays salaries 14x a year instead of 12x.

arijo 5y ago

The main reason Portugal does not have a competitive per capita GDP in the euro area is the fact that the older generations have, on average, very low instruction and education levels and thus are not able to be as productive as their northern European same generation citizens. There has been a big change in the last 20 years because of a big bet on higher education, science and technology. The new generations can compete with and match the productivity levels of any European citizen of the same age cohort. I hope this helps you better understand Portuguese economics because its impact on Portugal’s general wealth will become evident to anyone in the following decades.

adventured 5y ago
Wouldn't Portugal's GDP per capita have been increasing noticeably over the last few decades if for 20 years an influx of improvement had been occurring with new entrants to the labor force? Inflation adjusted Portugal's GDP per capita has hardly moved in three decades. In nominal terms it hasn't increased in 13 years, since the peak before the great recession (23% inflation adjusted decline over that time). By comparison Czechia was far worse off than Portugal 30 years ago and now has a higher per capita figure. Slovakia is likely to similarly overtake Portugal soon as well. The same is true of the Baltic states, all of which will overtake Portugal (Estonia already has). That doesn't seem like something that should be happening if Portugal were seeing a big positive change for decades.
- arijo3 5y ago
  As I started by saying: "The main reason Portugal does not have a competitive per capita GDP in the euro area .." The huge investment that has been made in higher education, science and technology took a whole generation for this effort to start displaying its results. The number of STEM PHDs for example, is today orders of magnitude higher than it was 20 years ago - things like this do take time and do not reflect on GDP data immediately. And yes we're starting to see its effects, though not at the level that I expect will be obvious to everyone who still thinks of Portuguese people through the prejudice resulting for many years of low productivity caused by high levels of illiteracy. Things are changing, see the example below: Remote raises $150m and becomes Portugal’s fifth unicorn - https://sifted.eu/articles/remote-unicorn/ https://sifted.eu/articles/remote-unicorn/ Actually, I have a friend from Slovakia, and what he tells me is exactly the opposite you have commented above - that the education system in Slovakia is today much worth than it was 10 years ago. Anyways, I'm seeing a lot of IT companies (local and foreign) being created and investing in Portugal and I invite you to come here to see for yourself how a big bet in education can have huge payoffs on the economical development of a country.

13415 5y ago

As a foreigner living and working as a long-term resident in Portugal (with a Portuguese salary and paying Portuguese taxes, of course), my impression is that the problems are systemic and long-term. There is no overnight solution but things are slowly improving. Salaries are still abysmal so many highly skilled workers migrate outside of Portugal. At the same time there is a ton of favoritism which leads to an abundant amount of incompetence in leadership positions, resulting in low motivation. People tend to work a lot, often they are forced to work longer than official work hours and there are long lunch breaks, but they do not always work very efficiently. My impression is that client-related businesses and the public sector (funcionários) are overstaffed. This is especially noticeable in shops, where there are often 3 or 4 people standing around with nothing to do until one of them draws some invisible short straw and takes care of you. I don't think there is an easy recipe to change systemic problems and I don't have any quirks with the current government. They're doing a fine job. Portugal used to be a rural society and have textile industry. I doubt it's going to turn into a high tech innovation hub anytime soon, but everyone is trying. The currently biggest problem are the increasing rents and stagnating salaries, as well as the brain drain mentioned above. But perhaps the biggest problem is favoritism and very pronounced social hierarchies, I've heard horror stories about psychopathic bosses. I've even met such people at university so I believe they have a grain of truth in them.

jrib 5y ago
I'm curious: if your don't mind sharing, what attracted you to living in Portugal as a foreigner?
- 13415 5y ago
  Pure coincidence, I got a exceptionally good postdoc grant there that fit my research profile and decided to stay after it ran out. I really came to like the country and its people the longer I've stayed.
EL_Loco 5y ago
Sorry to ask, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but do you live there by yourself or do you have a family? I have a wife and two kids, and I'm trying to figure out how much does it cost to live in Portugal, per month. I'm planning to move there, not now but in the short future. Could you give me an idea of the cost, if you're familiar with this situation (family of four). Thanks in advance.

andrepd 5y ago

There is not problem with the "culture of work" if by that you're implying people there are lazy and don't work as hard as in richer countries. The fact is that "hard work" or productivity is entirely uncorrelated with compensation. Simply the compensation of labour in a market is the equilibrium value, which because of the power imbalance between worker and owner means the least value the owner can get away with paying (or minimum wage), and in Portugal owners can get away with paying less than in Germany, and in Serbia less than Portugal, and in Bangladesh less than Serbia. Nothing to do with intrinsic work culture. EDIT: Also the Euro is a disaster for countries like Portugal. To be clear: joining the EU was excellent (Portugal is a totally different country now than it was before we joined), but joining the Euro was disastrous. It bound together countries like Portugal and Germany to the same monetary policy, even though they had/have completely opposite interests. Well guess who had it their way x) Despite this massive crippling of sovereignty, which reared its ugly head when the time came to handle the European crisis in 2011, Portugal reaped no benefit from the monetary union. Closer integration or common fiscal policy never happened, and Portugal was stuck in a monetary union without a political union (the EU is barely a democracy, but that's a whole nother can of worms). Germany meanwhile benefits fabulously from its position as the foremost surplus country in Europe, in monetary union with comparatively weak economies.

jp57 5y ago
> but joining the Euro was disastrous. It bound together countries like Portugal and Germany to the same monetary policy, even though they had/have completely opposite interests. I've often wondered about this. The US Dollar binds together poor states Alabama and rich states like California, but I don't think I've heard people arguing that two states being on a common currency contributes to the impoverishment of Alabama. I'm sure there are important differences between the Euro and the Dollar that account for this difference in perspective, but I don't know what they are.
- InspiredIdiot 5y ago
  I assume it comes down to the "monetary union without a political union" part. I think you could make some of the same arguments for the United States but Alabama and California have a stronger political union so there is less (but certainly still some) chance for California to exploit the relationship by tilting the monitory policy to favor itself. Having said that, I don't understand how EU-level policy is set. Are EU parliamentarians even directly elected?

baby 5y ago

One question is: can your people be happy if you don’t have the best economy? Do you need to constantly grow and produce more value to be sustainable?

belter 5y ago

For an even better example look at the different German states. Bavaria with its rich BMW factories versus Saarland where anybody who does not work in Luxembourg is poor as a mouse. Same German population, same working culture and methods, but completely different outcomes. One state is rich another one shows a deficit and there has been no job creation. If the German model is so good why cant Germany reproduce it in every part of the country? At the same time Volkswagen Autoeuropa an automotive assembly plant, located in the city of Palmela, near Lisbon, showed higher productivity than some sites in Germany. The problem with "working culture" analysis is that they miss the underlying processes, patterns and local constrains most teams are forced to work it.

emodendroket 5y ago
Well, that's one problem... another is that people often use it as an excuse for thinly veiled prejudice.
ekianjo 5y ago
> If the German model is so good why cant Germany reproduce it in every part of the country? Capital and supply chains are not spread evenly across the country... and that's a major factor. If culture was the only thing then you'd expect people at the top of a mountain to have the same level of life as someone living in a city. That's obviously not going to happen in any case.

blitzar 5y ago

On one hand they care about work/life balance for everyday citizens. On the other hand they have a lazy and unproductive workforce.

ptmvp 5y ago
Unproductive bit is true mostly due to the low value added nature of most jobs. The lazy thing is a tired, prejudiced, stereotype. Unless you also consider countries like Japan who work similar (but less) annual hours to be 'lazy'.[0] [0]https://data.oecd.org/chart/6wmc https://data.oecd.org/chart/6wmc