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I DM my staff on slack “after hours” [1] all the time, and set the expectation that they should respond when appropriate at their discretion. That could (and of

by mjamil 5y ago

I DM my staff on slack “after hours” [1] all the time, and set the expectation that they should respond when appropriate at their discretion. That could (and often does) mean the next business day or even later. Or it could mean ASAP; they’re adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call. [1] Obviously, this policy is not targeted at staff in different time zones, which makes their remedy meaningless.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
crossroadsguy 5y ago
> Or it could mean ASAP Why? This basically means they must “read” the message ASAP to decide whether to reply ASAP or not. That OUGHT NOT TO BE the expectation ever! Let alone the expectation of an immediate answer, the root problem is expectation of that message “being read right then” or soon.
McDyver 5y ago
As someone mention in another comment, sending an email would be more adequate. The reason being that even if people are "adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call", there is always a looming implied pressure in sending an instant message. Not everyone will have the mental fortitude to just leave things for later, when the boss sends a message.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
[Sentence removed due to misinterpreting comment I replied to]. It's important to consider the managers and poor leaders out there who might not be as upstanding as yourself with regards to expectations, necessitating legislation or regulation. Citizens are entitled to their uncompensated time off hours not being interrupted. It's likely the end result of this is using communications tool features to queue or hold messages until a worker's work day starts. I believe Slack, Teams, and Office 365 already support "quiet hours" at org level. Tangentially, when thinking about labor regulation, I think it's important to frame the conversations as "what monsters lurk in the private sector? [1] [2]" vs "I am a great boss, why would this be necessary?" [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath [2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  I have an 11 month old child. My work hours are all over the place. A law telling me I can't catch up on Slack when I'm up at midnight for unrelated reasons just makes my life worse. Why not just close slack when you leave for the day? I don't get it.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    > Why not just close slack when you leave for the day? I don't get it. Because there are bosses out there who, if you don't meet their expectation of round the clock access to you, will fire you or PIP you out. Regulation will always have some edge cases where said regulation is suboptimal, but optimal over the aggregate. Your life might be worse, but more people's lives are improved. Having children myself, I understand and can relate to your situation, but also understand the value of setting employment boundaries using regulation. Constant off hours contact is legitimately harmful to worker wellbeing [1]. "The insidious impact of 'always on' organizational culture is often unaccounted for or disguised as a benefit – increased convenience, for example, or higher autonomy and control over work-life boundaries," says Becker. "Our research exposes the reality: 'flexible work boundaries' often turn into 'work without boundaries,' compromising an employee's and their family's health and well-being. Becker's research [2] is part of a growing body of work that is affirming the negative effects of an "always on" work culture. Around the world, several governments have begun to go as far as legislate laws allowing employees the freedom to not have to engage with work outside of official work hours." [1] https://newatlas.com/right-to-disconnect-after-hours-work-emails/55879/ https://newatlas.com/right-to-disconnect-after-hours-work-em... (The right to disconnect: The new laws banning after-hours work emails) [2] https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/AMBPP.2018.121 https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/AMBPP.2018.121 (Killing me softly: Electronic communications monitoring and employee and spouse well-being)
    - jjk166 5y ago
      This is an example of regulating a poorly chosen proxy. If the issue is people getting fired for ignoring a message, make firing people for not being available 24/7 illegal. There are plenty of reasons why after hours messages might be useful and no one really has a problem with them on their own, it's other behaviors which are loosely correlated with it which are the issue. Yes you will always have edge cases, but we should strive to minimize those edge cases as much as possible. In the particular situation of "some people prefer work schedules outside the standard 9-5" it's not even a small edge case, nor an unintuitive one.
ashtonkem 5y ago
I generally shift over to email, because the expectations around email are quite different. In the past I've made it explicit what my expectations are for response time based on communication method, this has worked for cross-cultural work where unspoken assumptions are probably not shared.
black_puppydog 5y ago
It's great that you don't have the expectation of people reading or replying to your messages after hours. However, please recognize that even with a well-meaning boss like you, there are still mechanisms that incentivize individuals to at least read these messages, and once their free time has been "tainted" with work stuff, much of the damage is already done. Psychological pressures (which may be entirely internal but often are the result of other peers' attitudes as well) will still take a toll. IMHO, as grown-ups, it is the most reasonable thing to avoid such leakage altogether; when my phone rings after hours I need to be certain that this is not something that can wait. Luckily, since you're already using slack, you can just use the "send later" feature which is super simple to use and will work around this effectively. :)
- belval 5y ago
  I disagree with your take and I am mostly on the receiving end of those late Slack messages. If you do not wish to get notified unless it's an emergency there is a nifty feature that allows you to define your working hours, out of which you won't get a notification when getting messages on Slack. In case of something that is urgent the sender can override the "do not disturb" and send a notification anyway. This in my opinion is the right way to do. You should own the fact that your free time is yours and that you shouldn't open Slack to read those late messages. People work at different times (especially true for globally distributed team) and expecting people to "know" that they are outside of YOUR business hours simply does not scale to multiple employees.
  - crossroadsguy 5y ago
    Instant messaging should be used for instant messaging. There’s a reason we have email and now tickets as well.
    - Normal_gaussian 5y ago
      And his cries of "stop that, no, you're doing it wrong!" fell on deaf ears, for use is born not from design but usefulness.
jimbob45 5y ago
This is our policy as well and it works perfectly. In a world where working in different time zones is increasingly becoming the norm, there's really no other workable policy unless you want to hamstring team members outside of your company's "official" time zone. That said, I'm sure some bosses have abused this policy despite its well-meaning origins.
hxbdidk 5y ago
Or in other words "I expect my staff to always check every DM I send them out of hours and correctly deduce whether I expect them to respond immediately. If they don't I will consider them to have poor judgement."
ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
Yup slack is async communication. I always reply to my bosses 24 hours after they send me a message. To make sure that there is no expectation that I will be responding immediately.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
> Or it could mean ASAP Reading this as written, you're requiring your staff to read every message immediately but they only need to respond if you think they need to. That's no different than 24/7 on call when it comes to making some people's lives miserable.
monster_group 5y ago
I turn off my work computer after work day. I never install company chat apps / email on personal devices. So it really doesn't matter whether my manager messages me after hours or next business day because I'll only see when I login to work computer next morning.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  That's the correct answer
bonestamp2 5y ago
We have a team distributed over many time zones so we have to send messages to each other at "off hours". Thankfully we have a good understanding that this is for the convenience of the sender and the receiver can reply the following day. I have one team member in Quebec and the way they handle this seems to make more sense than Portugal's. Basically, the employees have the right to refuse 'overtime'. So, the boss can message them, but they cannot be penalized for not responding.
confidantlake 5y ago
That sounds terrible. Your staff has to read every message after hours in case they get one where they have to respond ASAP. Now I can see why Portugal deemed the law necessary.
david422 5y ago
> they’re adults But adults who's source of income is their job that you hold the power over. Even if everybody has a great relationship, that power differential is real and present and can't be changed.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
maxerickson 5y ago
I guess there can be lots of exceptions, but it's probably appropriate for many roles to not read the message until the next business day.
asdfsd234234444 5y ago
Yeah, no. The entire point of this law is that you don't get to message employees who aren't working. They aren't obligated to read your message and determine whether it is appropriate to reply immediately or tomorrow. You can message them during work hours.
sethammons 5y ago
Slack has the feature to send later. If it is after hours and non-urgent, it is scheduled for tomorrow or sent as an email. Anything else is disrespectful to the recipient's time and attention. Would you dm your boss's boss after hours? I would only if important.
roeles 5y ago
Early 2021, I was overstressed from (among other causes) being micromanaged. When a project manager asked me on my private WhatsApp if me being at home meant I couldn't attend this very important number, I looked into a separate phone for work. I got a separate SIM for 2,50 euro per month and put it into my previous smart-phone (I don't need performance for WhatsApp and the like). This was one of the best decisions I have ever made. Being able to physically shut down your work phone gave me heaps of peace.

by mjamil 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

crossroadsguy 5y ago

> Or it could mean ASAP Why? This basically means they must “read” the message ASAP to decide whether to reply ASAP or not. That OUGHT NOT TO BE the expectation ever! Let alone the expectation of an immediate answer, the root problem is expectation of that message “being read right then” or soon.

McDyver 5y ago

As someone mention in another comment, sending an email would be more adequate. The reason being that even if people are "adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call", there is always a looming implied pressure in sending an instant message. Not everyone will have the mental fortitude to just leave things for later, when the boss sends a message.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

[Sentence removed due to misinterpreting comment I replied to]. It's important to consider the managers and poor leaders out there who might not be as upstanding as yourself with regards to expectations, necessitating legislation or regulation. Citizens are entitled to their uncompensated time off hours not being interrupted. It's likely the end result of this is using communications tool features to queue or hold messages until a worker's work day starts. I believe Slack, Teams, and Office 365 already support "quiet hours" at org level. Tangentially, when thinking about labor regulation, I think it's important to frame the conversations as "what monsters lurk in the private sector? [1] [2]" vs "I am a great boss, why would this be necessary?" [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath [2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad

bpodgursky 5y ago
I have an 11 month old child. My work hours are all over the place. A law telling me I can't catch up on Slack when I'm up at midnight for unrelated reasons just makes my life worse. Why not just close slack when you leave for the day? I don't get it.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  > Why not just close slack when you leave for the day? I don't get it. Because there are bosses out there who, if you don't meet their expectation of round the clock access to you, will fire you or PIP you out. Regulation will always have some edge cases where said regulation is suboptimal, but optimal over the aggregate. Your life might be worse, but more people's lives are improved. Having children myself, I understand and can relate to your situation, but also understand the value of setting employment boundaries using regulation. Constant off hours contact is legitimately harmful to worker wellbeing [1]. "The insidious impact of 'always on' organizational culture is often unaccounted for or disguised as a benefit – increased convenience, for example, or higher autonomy and control over work-life boundaries," says Becker. "Our research exposes the reality: 'flexible work boundaries' often turn into 'work without boundaries,' compromising an employee's and their family's health and well-being. Becker's research [2] is part of a growing body of work that is affirming the negative effects of an "always on" work culture. Around the world, several governments have begun to go as far as legislate laws allowing employees the freedom to not have to engage with work outside of official work hours." [1] https://newatlas.com/right-to-disconnect-after-hours-work-emails/55879/ https://newatlas.com/right-to-disconnect-after-hours-work-em... (The right to disconnect: The new laws banning after-hours work emails) [2] https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/AMBPP.2018.121 https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/AMBPP.2018.121 (Killing me softly: Electronic communications monitoring and employee and spouse well-being)
  - jjk166 5y ago
    This is an example of regulating a poorly chosen proxy. If the issue is people getting fired for ignoring a message, make firing people for not being available 24/7 illegal. There are plenty of reasons why after hours messages might be useful and no one really has a problem with them on their own, it's other behaviors which are loosely correlated with it which are the issue. Yes you will always have edge cases, but we should strive to minimize those edge cases as much as possible. In the particular situation of "some people prefer work schedules outside the standard 9-5" it's not even a small edge case, nor an unintuitive one.

ashtonkem 5y ago

I generally shift over to email, because the expectations around email are quite different. In the past I've made it explicit what my expectations are for response time based on communication method, this has worked for cross-cultural work where unspoken assumptions are probably not shared.

black_puppydog 5y ago

It's great that you don't have the expectation of people reading or replying to your messages after hours. However, please recognize that even with a well-meaning boss like you, there are still mechanisms that incentivize individuals to at least read these messages, and once their free time has been "tainted" with work stuff, much of the damage is already done. Psychological pressures (which may be entirely internal but often are the result of other peers' attitudes as well) will still take a toll. IMHO, as grown-ups, it is the most reasonable thing to avoid such leakage altogether; when my phone rings after hours I need to be certain that this is not something that can wait. Luckily, since you're already using slack, you can just use the "send later" feature which is super simple to use and will work around this effectively. :)

belval 5y ago
I disagree with your take and I am mostly on the receiving end of those late Slack messages. If you do not wish to get notified unless it's an emergency there is a nifty feature that allows you to define your working hours, out of which you won't get a notification when getting messages on Slack. In case of something that is urgent the sender can override the "do not disturb" and send a notification anyway. This in my opinion is the right way to do. You should own the fact that your free time is yours and that you shouldn't open Slack to read those late messages. People work at different times (especially true for globally distributed team) and expecting people to "know" that they are outside of YOUR business hours simply does not scale to multiple employees.
- crossroadsguy 5y ago
  Instant messaging should be used for instant messaging. There’s a reason we have email and now tickets as well.
  - Normal_gaussian 5y ago
    And his cries of "stop that, no, you're doing it wrong!" fell on deaf ears, for use is born not from design but usefulness.

jimbob45 5y ago

This is our policy as well and it works perfectly. In a world where working in different time zones is increasingly becoming the norm, there's really no other workable policy unless you want to hamstring team members outside of your company's "official" time zone. That said, I'm sure some bosses have abused this policy despite its well-meaning origins.

hxbdidk 5y ago

Or in other words "I expect my staff to always check every DM I send them out of hours and correctly deduce whether I expect them to respond immediately. If they don't I will consider them to have poor judgement."

ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago

Yup slack is async communication. I always reply to my bosses 24 hours after they send me a message. To make sure that there is no expectation that I will be responding immediately.

kayodelycaon 5y ago

> Or it could mean ASAP Reading this as written, you're requiring your staff to read every message immediately but they only need to respond if you think they need to. That's no different than 24/7 on call when it comes to making some people's lives miserable.

monster_group 5y ago

I turn off my work computer after work day. I never install company chat apps / email on personal devices. So it really doesn't matter whether my manager messages me after hours or next business day because I'll only see when I login to work computer next morning.

beebeepka 5y ago
That's the correct answer

bonestamp2 5y ago

We have a team distributed over many time zones so we have to send messages to each other at "off hours". Thankfully we have a good understanding that this is for the convenience of the sender and the receiver can reply the following day. I have one team member in Quebec and the way they handle this seems to make more sense than Portugal's. Basically, the employees have the right to refuse 'overtime'. So, the boss can message them, but they cannot be penalized for not responding.

confidantlake 5y ago

That sounds terrible. Your staff has to read every message after hours in case they get one where they have to respond ASAP. Now I can see why Portugal deemed the law necessary.

david422 5y ago

> they’re adults But adults who's source of income is their job that you hold the power over. Even if everybody has a great relationship, that power differential is real and present and can't be changed.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

maxerickson 5y ago

I guess there can be lots of exceptions, but it's probably appropriate for many roles to not read the message until the next business day.

asdfsd234234444 5y ago

Yeah, no. The entire point of this law is that you don't get to message employees who aren't working. They aren't obligated to read your message and determine whether it is appropriate to reply immediately or tomorrow. You can message them during work hours.

sethammons 5y ago

Slack has the feature to send later. If it is after hours and non-urgent, it is scheduled for tomorrow or sent as an email. Anything else is disrespectful to the recipient's time and attention. Would you dm your boss's boss after hours? I would only if important.

roeles 5y ago

Early 2021, I was overstressed from (among other causes) being micromanaged. When a project manager asked me on my private WhatsApp if me being at home meant I couldn't attend this very important number, I looked into a separate phone for work. I got a separate SIM for 2,50 euro per month and put it into my previous smart-phone (I don't need performance for WhatsApp and the like). This was one of the best decisions I have ever made. Being able to physically shut down your work phone gave me heaps of peace.