4 ms·

There are pros and cons. If the population at large didn’t commit crime (in a perfect world) we wouldn’t need policing. Given that’s just fantasy, policing is

by mc32 5y ago

There are pros and cons. If the population at large didn’t commit crime (in a perfect world) we wouldn’t need policing. Given that’s just fantasy, policing is for now necessary. Distributed citizen policing devolved this back into the citizenry. Is that good, or is it bad? It has both. On the one hand everyone will have biases for and against things. On the other hand, those under threat have better recourse (against stalkers, casing a home, burglaries, etc.)

woodruffw 5y ago
Without getting into whether we need policing in general, I don't think this adequately explains why we need either American-style policing or this kind of creeping devolvement of tax-funded responsibilities back to untrained private citizens and companies.
- mc32 5y ago
  What do you mean by American-style policing? What sort of policing is significantly different from it and how many countries does that exist in?
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    When I say "American-style," I mean a few characteristics that I understand to be mostly unique to American law enforcement: * Devolvement to the lowest levels of municipal and/or county government, making standardization of training and practices across the entire country (much less individual states) virtually impossible. This is in contrast to countries like France, where the national police forces are an order of magnitude larger than municipal forces and command correspondingly greater authority. * Use of force & weapons-carrying. It's my understanding that the vast majority of normal LEOs in Western Europe do not carry guns on them during their normal patrols, and that use-of-force incidents (including civilian deaths) are correspondingly lower in most of Europe[1]. * Prevalence of policing fraternities and unions. Again, it's my understanding that these are a somewhat unique feature of American police forces: other countries might have labor protections for LEOs, but do not have pseudo-official organizations that provide cover for officer abuses. The closest thing I'm aware of is the ECP[2], which seems to be more of a legislative group. [1]: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-police-compare-different-democracies https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-police-compare-differen... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Confederation_of_Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Confederation_of_Poli...
    - Clubber 5y ago
      Qualified immunity and self regulation are big ones. I'm not sure if police in other countries can kill people for dubious reasons and the legal results is, "they acted within the policy and the law." Also deferment of consequence. When a cop does something wrong, neither he, nor his union, nor the department, nor his pension fund, nor his budget face any financial consequences; that's a burden of the city, ultimately the tax payor, who ironically is the group being infringed upon.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
      Anecdotally I see people with machine guns in the streets and especially in transit hubs in Europe much more often than in the U.S. It is true that ~all U.S. cops on a beat carry guns, whereas in the U.K. that's not the case. I get the impression that pretty much all cops in France have guns too, though.
      - woodruffw 5y ago
        Yeah, I've noticed that when visiting Europe. It's not that different from the transit hubs here in NYC -- it's common to see Port Authority and other agencies with full rifles and machine guns. But I think that's somewhat recent; perhaps within the last decade, and certainly not common elsewhere in the US. That being said, my understanding is that those armed forces are usually gendarmerie in Europe -- half police, half civilian military. The US doesn't have anything resembling that because of Posse Comitatus[1], so they're difficult to compare directly. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
        NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
        Huh, interesting! We do have the National Guard (confusingly named, state-based organizations under the governor of that state)
        Ancapistani 5y ago
        Some US states also have militias that are wholly controlled by the state and not able to be called up by the federal goverment. I’m familiar with the Virginia Defense Force off the top of my head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Defense_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Defense_Force

by mc32 5y ago

woodruffw 5y ago

Without getting into whether we need policing in general, I don't think this adequately explains why we need either American-style policing or this kind of creeping devolvement of tax-funded responsibilities back to untrained private citizens and companies.

mc32 5y ago
What do you mean by American-style policing? What sort of policing is significantly different from it and how many countries does that exist in?
- woodruffw 5y ago
  When I say "American-style," I mean a few characteristics that I understand to be mostly unique to American law enforcement: * Devolvement to the lowest levels of municipal and/or county government, making standardization of training and practices across the entire country (much less individual states) virtually impossible. This is in contrast to countries like France, where the national police forces are an order of magnitude larger than municipal forces and command correspondingly greater authority. * Use of force & weapons-carrying. It's my understanding that the vast majority of normal LEOs in Western Europe do not carry guns on them during their normal patrols, and that use-of-force incidents (including civilian deaths) are correspondingly lower in most of Europe[1]. * Prevalence of policing fraternities and unions. Again, it's my understanding that these are a somewhat unique feature of American police forces: other countries might have labor protections for LEOs, but do not have pseudo-official organizations that provide cover for officer abuses. The closest thing I'm aware of is the ECP[2], which seems to be more of a legislative group. [1]: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-police-compare-different-democracies https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-police-compare-differen... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Confederation_of_Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Confederation_of_Poli...
  - Clubber 5y ago
    Qualified immunity and self regulation are big ones. I'm not sure if police in other countries can kill people for dubious reasons and the legal results is, "they acted within the policy and the law." Also deferment of consequence. When a cop does something wrong, neither he, nor his union, nor the department, nor his pension fund, nor his budget face any financial consequences; that's a burden of the city, ultimately the tax payor, who ironically is the group being infringed upon.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    Anecdotally I see people with machine guns in the streets and especially in transit hubs in Europe much more often than in the U.S. It is true that ~all U.S. cops on a beat carry guns, whereas in the U.K. that's not the case. I get the impression that pretty much all cops in France have guns too, though.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      Yeah, I've noticed that when visiting Europe. It's not that different from the transit hubs here in NYC -- it's common to see Port Authority and other agencies with full rifles and machine guns. But I think that's somewhat recent; perhaps within the last decade, and certainly not common elsewhere in the US. That being said, my understanding is that those armed forces are usually gendarmerie in Europe -- half police, half civilian military. The US doesn't have anything resembling that because of Posse Comitatus[1], so they're difficult to compare directly. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
      - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
        Huh, interesting! We do have the National Guard (confusingly named, state-based organizations under the governor of that state)
        Ancapistani 5y ago
        Some US states also have militias that are wholly controlled by the state and not able to be called up by the federal goverment. I’m familiar with the Virginia Defense Force off the top of my head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Defense_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Defense_Force