8 ms·

The problem is that people in the U.S. so often only see homelessness through the lens of where they live. Homelessness is a unique problem in each city. For ex

The problem is that people in the U.S. so often only see homelessness through the lens of where they live. Homelessness is a unique problem in each city. For example, the west coast has favorable weather and a history of being a destination for people after they are released from prisons or mental facilities. In cities on the east coast there is more leftist-narrative style homelessness: people who were depending on family and their family died, missing a check and sleeping rough for a bit, etc. There are also huge problems with treating the many different problems the same way. For example, California would probably benefit a lot more from building a mental health crisis center and Georgia might benefit more from temporary housing that actually gives you your own address (so that you can list it on job applications, cell service, etc). But in all instances there is typically an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use (due to restrictions on substance abuse etc.) it’s a tough problem.

cheriot 5y ago
"But in all instances there is typically an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use" What's a west coast city with empty shelters? The ones in my town are full.
woodruffw 5y ago
I will repeat this every time someone uses “favorable weather” to explain California’s barbaric treatment of its homeless: nobody wants to die of exposure. You can die of expose at temperatures well above what housed people consider “comfortable.” The number of homeless people who would rather stay outside in your “favorable climate” versus being afforded the basic dignity of a roof and room is a rounding error.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Contrary to leftist belief just giving people a roof over their head doesn't magically fix things. Where it that easy. A lot of homeless are mentally ill, drug users and or antisocial. You can't just drop these people in a neighbourhood and everyone lived happily ever after.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    > A lot of homeless are mentally ill, drug users and or antisocial. 1. the article data doesn't back that up. it showed most of the growth was not mentally ill drug users. 2. Being homeless might make you mentally ill, drug using anti-social person.
  - cheriot 5y ago
    Nobody claims housing fixes those things, but it is an improvement over the same people sleeping on the sidewalk. We don't need to put off the simple solutions because there are harder ones after that.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    I didn’t say it “fixes” things, whatever that can possibly mean. All I’ve done is counter the normal excuse for the barbaric practice of not providing basic amenities to the most needy.
  - brendoelfrendo 5y ago
    I don't know a single leftist who wants to just drop the homeless in housing and forget about them. Usually, when people talk about housing-first policies, they're advocating for flipping the script: don't make treatment, abstinence or work a prerequisite for housing; give them a permanent address, a climate-controlled shelter, and a secure place to store their belongings. And then, concurrent to that, you can help them get a job and treatment for illness or addiction.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      Most people regardless of politics are simply NIMBY and assume because they haven’t been in the same situation but think they know better, it’s just like Emma/Clueless. I know people who got section 8 housing and just lazed around, I remember one guy said he moved out to pay himself and I didn’t understand why someone would rationally do that, it’s similar to moving out of your parent’s home. It feels good to work for what you get, our struggles and pain are what drives our personal growth, rather than subsidizing symptoms and masking the problems like being beaten by your husband but the antidepressants and opiates are soothing enough to stay.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  Honestly spoken like someone who hasn’t been homeless or is close to anyone who has been homeless. A lot of people are severely mentally unwell and do not want shelter. And the complicating factor is the percentage of people like this depends on the city! Eg Utah’s approach to homelessness probably won’t work for Oregon.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    I have spent my entire life around the homeless, in a city that has a universal shelter mandate. I’ve also spent the better part of a decade volunteering in food pantries and community kitchens. > A lot of people are severely mentally unwell and do not want shelter. No. What they don’t want is to be corralled like livestock into shared living spaces, with no privacy or protection for their property. That’s not because they’re mentally ill; it’s because it’s degrading. Give mentally ill people the choice of dignity and they will overwhelmingly choose it.
    - spywaregorilla 5y ago
      > Give mentally ill people the choice of dignity and they will overwhelmingly choose it. The one's flashing their genitals and screaming at strangers? The definition of "mentally ill homeless" is surely nuanced and varied, by this archetype is certainly what a lot of people are going to think of when they hear the term. It's hard for me to imagine degradation is relevant to them.
      - woodruffw 5y ago
        Emphasis on "overwhelmingly." One of the most pernicious problems in homeless advocacy is that the average person only remembers their worst encounters with mentally ill homeless people, not the tens of thousands of people who they've silently passed on the street.
        dymk 5y ago
        that’s because there’s two different types of homelessness, and people are intent on conflating the two
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
1986 5y ago
> an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use (due to restrictions on substance abuse etc.) There's a lot hiding in that "etc". Some other reasons people refuse to use (some) shelters: - shelter is / feels unsafe due to a subset of the sheltered population - shelter has a curfew that does not allow you to maintain your work schedule - shelter won't let you bring your child or pet or stuff
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Shelter won't let you drink, even in moderation.
  - mjevans 5y ago
    I get the reasons for that, even ignoring the moral mission ones; it's too much effort to monitor for abuse and just easier to issue an outright ban. A substantially different world if we had friendly AI to do that monitoring and maybe individual tiny-houses or apartments rather than a bunkhouse free-for-all like Squid Games.
    - convolvatron 5y ago
      who really cares about abuse at this point? if you demand that people who have ruined their lives through substance abuse quit on a dime before you let them in - you can't expect them to ever be ready to do that. for me the real issue is that some of these people - users and not, are quite messed up, and can really end up doing horrible things to the staff and the other residents. policing that seems pretty impossible
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I've seen this first hand and its difficult to comprehend. Some people would rather sleep in dead cold winter than to be in shelters. That's worth investigating...
  - zwkrt 5y ago
    I worked on a shelter in Seattle for a year. The biggest reason people wouldn’t come in is because they needed to check in at a regular time every day, which is a ridiculous requirement. Other shelters were even more stringent, with no smoking (tobacco) or breathalyzer tests, needing to attend daily prayer, and/or daily social worker check-ins. The shelters are run like the residents are children. The problem is that the rich people who give money to the shelter have moral stipulations along with their money, since they want to feel like they are “rehabilitating” people with the money they throw st the problem. If I had to operate under the same requirements as the shelter to keep my apartment, I would be on the streets too.
throwaway19937 5y ago
The west coast also has the 9th circuit's Martin v. Boise decision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise). It prevents criminalizing public camping unless there's shelter space for everyone. This is impossible given the number of homeless people so we're stuck with encampments everywhere.
- epistasis 5y ago
  I think it's exceptionally possible to build enough shelter space, and adequate funds for most large cities. However what makes it possible is the people who object to construction of new shelter space, who oppose the creation of safe parking spaces, and the creation even of encampments with basic services. IMHO the impulse to keep people out of their city and their neighborhood results in encampments and generally worse conditions both for those with and without houses.
  - throwaway19937 5y ago
    > I think it's exceptionally possible to build enough shelter space, and adequate funds for most large cities. However what makes it possible is the people who object to construction of new shelter space, who oppose the creation of safe parking spaces, and the creation even of encampments with basic services. If you mean that it's possible except for the voters then that may be true but it's kind of irrelevant. > IMHO the impulse to keep people out of their city and their neighborhood results in encampments and generally worse conditions both for those with and without houses. It's entirely sensible to oppose encampments in my neighborhood. Fires, crimes, and assaults are regular occurrences at encampments and homeless people in Seattle are effectively immune from prosecution. Would you want a habitual offender like Francisco Calderon (https://komonews.com/news/project-seattle/warrant-issued-for-repeat-offender-francisco-calderon https://komonews.com/news/project-seattle/warrant-issued-for...) or Travis Berge (https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/meth-mental-illness-murder-how-one-prolific-offender-was-given-chance-after-chance/OLIJ2GQJ2JHTJFXW2YUD7GCVPM/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/meth-mental-illness-murder-...) as a neighbor?
lukeschlather 5y ago
> But in all instances there is typically an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use (due to restrictions on substance abuse etc.) it’s a tough problem. This is not correct. In most places, there is a wild shortage of shelters. For example King County has ~4000 shelter beds and ~12,000 people who need shelter. AFAIK the only place where there are enough shelter beds is NYC where they are legally required to provide anyone with shelter.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  Look at occupancy rates of those shelters — they’re almost all low.

cheriot 5y ago

"But in all instances there is typically an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use" What's a west coast city with empty shelters? The ones in my town are full.

woodruffw 5y ago

I will repeat this every time someone uses “favorable weather” to explain California’s barbaric treatment of its homeless: nobody wants to die of exposure. You can die of expose at temperatures well above what housed people consider “comfortable.” The number of homeless people who would rather stay outside in your “favorable climate” versus being afforded the basic dignity of a roof and room is a rounding error.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Contrary to leftist belief just giving people a roof over their head doesn't magically fix things. Where it that easy. A lot of homeless are mentally ill, drug users and or antisocial. You can't just drop these people in a neighbourhood and everyone lived happily ever after.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > A lot of homeless are mentally ill, drug users and or antisocial. 1. the article data doesn't back that up. it showed most of the growth was not mentally ill drug users. 2. Being homeless might make you mentally ill, drug using anti-social person.
- cheriot 5y ago
  Nobody claims housing fixes those things, but it is an improvement over the same people sleeping on the sidewalk. We don't need to put off the simple solutions because there are harder ones after that.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  I didn’t say it “fixes” things, whatever that can possibly mean. All I’ve done is counter the normal excuse for the barbaric practice of not providing basic amenities to the most needy.
- brendoelfrendo 5y ago
  I don't know a single leftist who wants to just drop the homeless in housing and forget about them. Usually, when people talk about housing-first policies, they're advocating for flipping the script: don't make treatment, abstinence or work a prerequisite for housing; give them a permanent address, a climate-controlled shelter, and a secure place to store their belongings. And then, concurrent to that, you can help them get a job and treatment for illness or addiction.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Most people regardless of politics are simply NIMBY and assume because they haven’t been in the same situation but think they know better, it’s just like Emma/Clueless. I know people who got section 8 housing and just lazed around, I remember one guy said he moved out to pay himself and I didn’t understand why someone would rationally do that, it’s similar to moving out of your parent’s home. It feels good to work for what you get, our struggles and pain are what drives our personal growth, rather than subsidizing symptoms and masking the problems like being beaten by your husband but the antidepressants and opiates are soothing enough to stay.
nostrebored 5y ago
Honestly spoken like someone who hasn’t been homeless or is close to anyone who has been homeless. A lot of people are severely mentally unwell and do not want shelter. And the complicating factor is the percentage of people like this depends on the city! Eg Utah’s approach to homelessness probably won’t work for Oregon.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  I have spent my entire life around the homeless, in a city that has a universal shelter mandate. I’ve also spent the better part of a decade volunteering in food pantries and community kitchens. > A lot of people are severely mentally unwell and do not want shelter. No. What they don’t want is to be corralled like livestock into shared living spaces, with no privacy or protection for their property. That’s not because they’re mentally ill; it’s because it’s degrading. Give mentally ill people the choice of dignity and they will overwhelmingly choose it.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    > Give mentally ill people the choice of dignity and they will overwhelmingly choose it. The one's flashing their genitals and screaming at strangers? The definition of "mentally ill homeless" is surely nuanced and varied, by this archetype is certainly what a lot of people are going to think of when they hear the term. It's hard for me to imagine degradation is relevant to them.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      Emphasis on "overwhelmingly." One of the most pernicious problems in homeless advocacy is that the average person only remembers their worst encounters with mentally ill homeless people, not the tens of thousands of people who they've silently passed on the street.
      - dymk 5y ago
        that’s because there’s two different types of homelessness, and people are intent on conflating the two
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

1986 5y ago

> an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use (due to restrictions on substance abuse etc.) There's a lot hiding in that "etc". Some other reasons people refuse to use (some) shelters: - shelter is / feels unsafe due to a subset of the sheltered population - shelter has a curfew that does not allow you to maintain your work schedule - shelter won't let you bring your child or pet or stuff

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Shelter won't let you drink, even in moderation.
- mjevans 5y ago
  I get the reasons for that, even ignoring the moral mission ones; it's too much effort to monitor for abuse and just easier to issue an outright ban. A substantially different world if we had friendly AI to do that monitoring and maybe individual tiny-houses or apartments rather than a bunkhouse free-for-all like Squid Games.
  - convolvatron 5y ago
    who really cares about abuse at this point? if you demand that people who have ruined their lives through substance abuse quit on a dime before you let them in - you can't expect them to ever be ready to do that. for me the real issue is that some of these people - users and not, are quite messed up, and can really end up doing horrible things to the staff and the other residents. policing that seems pretty impossible
agumonkey 5y ago
I've seen this first hand and its difficult to comprehend. Some people would rather sleep in dead cold winter than to be in shelters. That's worth investigating...
- zwkrt 5y ago
  I worked on a shelter in Seattle for a year. The biggest reason people wouldn’t come in is because they needed to check in at a regular time every day, which is a ridiculous requirement. Other shelters were even more stringent, with no smoking (tobacco) or breathalyzer tests, needing to attend daily prayer, and/or daily social worker check-ins. The shelters are run like the residents are children. The problem is that the rich people who give money to the shelter have moral stipulations along with their money, since they want to feel like they are “rehabilitating” people with the money they throw st the problem. If I had to operate under the same requirements as the shelter to keep my apartment, I would be on the streets too.

throwaway19937 5y ago

The west coast also has the 9th circuit's Martin v. Boise decision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise). It prevents criminalizing public camping unless there's shelter space for everyone. This is impossible given the number of homeless people so we're stuck with encampments everywhere.

epistasis 5y ago
I think it's exceptionally possible to build enough shelter space, and adequate funds for most large cities. However what makes it possible is the people who object to construction of new shelter space, who oppose the creation of safe parking spaces, and the creation even of encampments with basic services. IMHO the impulse to keep people out of their city and their neighborhood results in encampments and generally worse conditions both for those with and without houses.
- throwaway19937 5y ago
  > I think it's exceptionally possible to build enough shelter space, and adequate funds for most large cities. However what makes it possible is the people who object to construction of new shelter space, who oppose the creation of safe parking spaces, and the creation even of encampments with basic services. If you mean that it's possible except for the voters then that may be true but it's kind of irrelevant. > IMHO the impulse to keep people out of their city and their neighborhood results in encampments and generally worse conditions both for those with and without houses. It's entirely sensible to oppose encampments in my neighborhood. Fires, crimes, and assaults are regular occurrences at encampments and homeless people in Seattle are effectively immune from prosecution. Would you want a habitual offender like Francisco Calderon (https://komonews.com/news/project-seattle/warrant-issued-for-repeat-offender-francisco-calderon https://komonews.com/news/project-seattle/warrant-issued-for...) or Travis Berge (https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/meth-mental-illness-murder-how-one-prolific-offender-was-given-chance-after-chance/OLIJ2GQJ2JHTJFXW2YUD7GCVPM/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/meth-mental-illness-murder-...) as a neighbor?

lukeschlather 5y ago

> But in all instances there is typically an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use (due to restrictions on substance abuse etc.) it’s a tough problem. This is not correct. In most places, there is a wild shortage of shelters. For example King County has ~4000 shelter beds and ~12,000 people who need shelter. AFAIK the only place where there are enough shelter beds is NYC where they are legally required to provide anyone with shelter.

nostrebored 5y ago
Look at occupancy rates of those shelters — they’re almost all low.