5 ms·

Why does anyone still interact with Microsoft? No other company is as openly hostile towards its users, at least Google, and Apple and the likes have the decen

by anm89 5y ago

Why does anyone still interact with Microsoft? No other company is as openly hostile towards its users, at least Google, and Apple and the likes have the decency to pretend they care. But the confusing part with Microsoft is that there are a multitude of alternatives. There isn't nearly as much lock in as with some of the other companies. It seems like enterprise is what keeps them alive and let's them get away with all of this stuff but it's not clear to me why big enterprise feels so locked in on Microsoft in 2021.

selfhoster11 5y ago
Enterprise to enterprise is much easier when they go through a Microsoft intermediary. SSO goes through Microsoft, calendar invitations go through Microsoft, office document interop goes through Microsoft, document sharing goes through Microsoft (via SharePoint).
coliveira 5y ago
My opinion is that MS is again doing backroom deals with large companies, like they used to do in the 90s. Its the only explanation why companies are not treating MS products as toxic malware, which is what they actually are.
- anm89 5y ago
  Yeah "enterprise sales".
djbusby 5y ago
Support contract and backwards compatibility. And also pretending those things don't exist on Linux.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > And also pretending those things don't exist on Linux. As in, this kind of misbehavior existing on Linux distros? I'm not aware of any FOSS operating system trying to force one browser over another except for Chrom/ium OS (which isn't what most people mean when they say "Linux")
  - anm89 5y ago
    I've never seen Ubuntu be a 10th as agressive on any front as windows is. Just an anecdote.
  - djbusby 5y ago
    NO! Pretending that Backwards-Compat and Support don't exist.
robin_reala 5y ago
Oracle. Oracle are that hostile.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Oracle might have the dubious distinction of managing to be worse; at least Microsoft isn't going around suing people (who weren't egregiously and intentionally pirating stuff, at least).
- anm89 5y ago
  Agreed but Oracle is also like a third tier player at this point.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throw_m239339 5y ago
> Why does anyone still interact with Microsoft? Cause they somehow like that "new Microsoft" that doesn't exist. Problem is now Microsoft owns Github, and NPM so virtually Microsoft owns Node.js, and that allegedly open source ID called Visual Studio Code that isn't really open source.
IshKebab 5y ago
There aren't a multitude of alternatives. There's Apple. That's it. Linux is not a realistic alternative for most people.
- anm89 5y ago
  I don't really understand this one. When I want to use the internet on Ubuntu i click the internet picture. When I want to use a spreadsheet I click the spreadsheet picture. When I want to download non dev stuff I click the app store picture and then search for what I want. I don't buy this argument that the average person can't use Ubuntu. It's easier to use than windows in a vast majority of ways without ever touching a command line.
  - smhenderson 5y ago
    Linux is great and so are most things Open Source. My company uses an Accounting/ERP System called Macola. That doesn't run on Linux. And I am not going to experiment with Wine when it comes to our ERP system. So what ERP system should I switch to that runs on Linux? I guess we could go cloud and use NetSuite. But I hate Oracle more than I hate Microsoft. Not all software, especially in the office/at work is internet browsing and spreadsheets. It has nothing to do with easy, it's about, sometimes many decades worth, of software development and applications that don't run well on anything but Windows. I gave up trying to make everything work from my Linux box a long time ago and am happier because of it. And, in the end, at home? I run OpenBSD because the most popular Linux distributions came along and forced me to use something called systemd and I don't care for it any more than I do Microsoft Edge. And in no way am I arguing that what they are doing with Edge or Windows 11 is in anyway acceptable.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    You're describing the happy path, where all your hardware works, and you only use basic software. In practice stuff just tends to go wrong, fixing it is always complicated command line stuff, and that one bit of software you need only runs on Windows or Mac.
ddtaylor 5y ago
> No other company is as openly hostile towards its users, Apple is pretty close in some ways. They are against the loading of apps they can't control even though many want to sideload and they did that whole scanning thing.
- anm89 5y ago
  At least Tim will throw out some token email about how it's some vision for the future and peace and love for humanity or whatever other bullshit he says. But at least he pretends. Under the hood I still think Apple is better to users but maybe more hostile to developers?
Vrondi 5y ago
Because Apple's UI and "we will tell you what you want" attitude has always made my skin crawl. What kind of moron thinks detaching the menu for apps from the window for apps is a good UI design? And, because most of the software I need for my job still does not run on Linux.
- anm89 5y ago
  I feel like microsoft is the same but instead of them telling you what they want the OS will just forcibly switch states and just DO whatever it wants. I'm not an Apple defender by any stretch but personally it still never feels as agressively shitty as MS products
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > [Mac OS] still never feels as agressively shitty as MS products No, you're right: it's more passive-agressively shitty.
- hbn 5y ago
  > What kind of moron thinks detaching the menu for apps from the window for apps is a good UI design? As a UX it's consistent, and very nice that for any app I'm using, I have a familiar menu I can navigate, and I can even hit Cmd+Shift+/ and hop into a search of every item in that consistent menu (which tends to include most major actions you'd want to do in that app). And I think it being detached and stuck to the top of the screen at an OS-level is important for this to work. I certainly wouldn't want the OS to force design upon the window itself (i.e. having the same bar but attached to the top of every window), and if it was an optional, native UI component included in an SDK, a good amount of apps (read: most) wouldn't use it (that's basically the situation on Windows). But because it's essentially part of the OS, and an app would look weird if it didn't have that, it's created a very consistent experience across all apps.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > very nice that for any app I'm using, I have a familiar menu I can navigate With the CUA standards you also have a familiar menu you can navigate for any app; it just happens to be attached to the window it belongs to.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> Why does anyone still interact with Microsoft? The same reason I vote for democrats: As much as they suck, the alternatives are even worse.
- anm89 5y ago
  Ubuntu is worse? From personal experience I'd say ubuntu is imperfect but when I get on a windows machine I can instantly tangibly feel how much the OS is bugging me so I'd say it is noticeably worse. And if Ubuntu isn't your thing than their or a million other linux OSes. And that's before we discuss OSx which I still perosnally dislike but it would be hard for me to argue it is worse than Windows
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > Ubuntu is worse? Yes. > From personal experience [...] Let me stop you right there: I don't give a rat's ass what your experience is. Sorry to have to put it so bluntly, but literally every single time someone admits to not liking Linux Desktop a Linux Desktop user crawls out of the woodwork to tell them how great everything is for them like they're supposed to care. I care what my experience is when it comes to things I use. > And if Ubuntu isn't your thing than their or a million other linux OSes. Most of them are even worse than Ubuntu. The best ones are only slightly better. > And that's before we discuss OSx Which is exclusive to Apple hardware I don't like and has even worse software support than Linux, especially if you count games and I do.
    - anm89 5y ago
      > I care what my experience is when it comes to things I use. Let me stop you right there: I don't give a rat's ass what your experience is. See how dumb it is to yell at people for sharing their opinions about tech on an internet forum for sharing your opinions about tech? It's OK to disagree. I disagree with you too. Maybe all these people come out of the wood works because they genuinely have had great experiences with Ubuntu/ whatever

by anm89 5y ago

selfhoster11 5y ago

Enterprise to enterprise is much easier when they go through a Microsoft intermediary. SSO goes through Microsoft, calendar invitations go through Microsoft, office document interop goes through Microsoft, document sharing goes through Microsoft (via SharePoint).

coliveira 5y ago

My opinion is that MS is again doing backroom deals with large companies, like they used to do in the 90s. Its the only explanation why companies are not treating MS products as toxic malware, which is what they actually are.

anm89 5y ago
Yeah "enterprise sales".

djbusby 5y ago

Support contract and backwards compatibility. And also pretending those things don't exist on Linux.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> And also pretending those things don't exist on Linux. As in, this kind of misbehavior existing on Linux distros? I'm not aware of any FOSS operating system trying to force one browser over another except for Chrom/ium OS (which isn't what most people mean when they say "Linux")
- anm89 5y ago
  I've never seen Ubuntu be a 10th as agressive on any front as windows is. Just an anecdote.
- djbusby 5y ago
  NO! Pretending that Backwards-Compat and Support don't exist.

robin_reala 5y ago

Oracle. Oracle are that hostile.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Oracle might have the dubious distinction of managing to be worse; at least Microsoft isn't going around suing people (who weren't egregiously and intentionally pirating stuff, at least).
anm89 5y ago
Agreed but Oracle is also like a third tier player at this point.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

throw_m239339 5y ago

> Why does anyone still interact with Microsoft? Cause they somehow like that "new Microsoft" that doesn't exist. Problem is now Microsoft owns Github, and NPM so virtually Microsoft owns Node.js, and that allegedly open source ID called Visual Studio Code that isn't really open source.

IshKebab 5y ago

There aren't a multitude of alternatives. There's Apple. That's it. Linux is not a realistic alternative for most people.

anm89 5y ago
I don't really understand this one. When I want to use the internet on Ubuntu i click the internet picture. When I want to use a spreadsheet I click the spreadsheet picture. When I want to download non dev stuff I click the app store picture and then search for what I want. I don't buy this argument that the average person can't use Ubuntu. It's easier to use than windows in a vast majority of ways without ever touching a command line.
- smhenderson 5y ago
  Linux is great and so are most things Open Source. My company uses an Accounting/ERP System called Macola. That doesn't run on Linux. And I am not going to experiment with Wine when it comes to our ERP system. So what ERP system should I switch to that runs on Linux? I guess we could go cloud and use NetSuite. But I hate Oracle more than I hate Microsoft. Not all software, especially in the office/at work is internet browsing and spreadsheets. It has nothing to do with easy, it's about, sometimes many decades worth, of software development and applications that don't run well on anything but Windows. I gave up trying to make everything work from my Linux box a long time ago and am happier because of it. And, in the end, at home? I run OpenBSD because the most popular Linux distributions came along and forced me to use something called systemd and I don't care for it any more than I do Microsoft Edge. And in no way am I arguing that what they are doing with Edge or Windows 11 is in anyway acceptable.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  You're describing the happy path, where all your hardware works, and you only use basic software. In practice stuff just tends to go wrong, fixing it is always complicated command line stuff, and that one bit of software you need only runs on Windows or Mac.

ddtaylor 5y ago

> No other company is as openly hostile towards its users, Apple is pretty close in some ways. They are against the loading of apps they can't control even though many want to sideload and they did that whole scanning thing.

anm89 5y ago
At least Tim will throw out some token email about how it's some vision for the future and peace and love for humanity or whatever other bullshit he says. But at least he pretends. Under the hood I still think Apple is better to users but maybe more hostile to developers?

Vrondi 5y ago

Because Apple's UI and "we will tell you what you want" attitude has always made my skin crawl. What kind of moron thinks detaching the menu for apps from the window for apps is a good UI design? And, because most of the software I need for my job still does not run on Linux.

anm89 5y ago
I feel like microsoft is the same but instead of them telling you what they want the OS will just forcibly switch states and just DO whatever it wants. I'm not an Apple defender by any stretch but personally it still never feels as agressively shitty as MS products
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > [Mac OS] still never feels as agressively shitty as MS products No, you're right: it's more passive-agressively shitty.
hbn 5y ago
> What kind of moron thinks detaching the menu for apps from the window for apps is a good UI design? As a UX it's consistent, and very nice that for any app I'm using, I have a familiar menu I can navigate, and I can even hit Cmd+Shift+/ and hop into a search of every item in that consistent menu (which tends to include most major actions you'd want to do in that app). And I think it being detached and stuck to the top of the screen at an OS-level is important for this to work. I certainly wouldn't want the OS to force design upon the window itself (i.e. having the same bar but attached to the top of every window), and if it was an optional, native UI component included in an SDK, a good amount of apps (read: most) wouldn't use it (that's basically the situation on Windows). But because it's essentially part of the OS, and an app would look weird if it didn't have that, it's created a very consistent experience across all apps.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > very nice that for any app I'm using, I have a familiar menu I can navigate With the CUA standards you also have a familiar menu you can navigate for any app; it just happens to be attached to the window it belongs to.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

> Why does anyone still interact with Microsoft? The same reason I vote for democrats: As much as they suck, the alternatives are even worse.

anm89 5y ago
Ubuntu is worse? From personal experience I'd say ubuntu is imperfect but when I get on a windows machine I can instantly tangibly feel how much the OS is bugging me so I'd say it is noticeably worse. And if Ubuntu isn't your thing than their or a million other linux OSes. And that's before we discuss OSx which I still perosnally dislike but it would be hard for me to argue it is worse than Windows
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > Ubuntu is worse? Yes. > From personal experience [...] Let me stop you right there: I don't give a rat's ass what your experience is. Sorry to have to put it so bluntly, but literally every single time someone admits to not liking Linux Desktop a Linux Desktop user crawls out of the woodwork to tell them how great everything is for them like they're supposed to care. I care what my experience is when it comes to things I use. > And if Ubuntu isn't your thing than their or a million other linux OSes. Most of them are even worse than Ubuntu. The best ones are only slightly better. > And that's before we discuss OSx Which is exclusive to Apple hardware I don't like and has even worse software support than Linux, especially if you count games and I do.
  - anm89 5y ago
    > I care what my experience is when it comes to things I use. Let me stop you right there: I don't give a rat's ass what your experience is. See how dumb it is to yell at people for sharing their opinions about tech on an internet forum for sharing your opinions about tech? It's OK to disagree. I disagree with you too. Maybe all these people come out of the wood works because they genuinely have had great experiences with Ubuntu/ whatever