7 ms·

People with 1 dose J&J will be considered unvaxxed from Jan 3rd 2022 in Austria

48 points by Markoff 5y ago

blub 5y ago
This was exactly one of the concerns of those of us that criticized AstaZeneca in the past and wanted to wait for Biontech/Pfizer - that the vaccine will be considered second rate. It was of course dismissed, just like the concerns about the blood clots were in the beginning. Also recently several countries started recommending against using Moderna for under 30s due to the higher risk of heart issues compared to Biontech/Pfizer.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  From the data in Israel it is clear that Pfizer's efficacy vanes over time, thus the need for boosters. So, it is not because J&J is second rate. We will probably need boosters while there's high prevalence of the virus.
  - collias 5y ago
    Pfizer’s own data says the same thing. The safety and efficacy study they did shows that efficacy drops by about 6% every 2 months. Everyone will need boosters at least once per year in perpetuity if they want to maintain any reasonable amount of protection. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v...
    - akomtu 5y ago
      Does natural immunity wane off at the same rate?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
        It doesn't look like it. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... > SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were previously infected.
        akomtu 5y ago
        So it's better to get natural immunity while under the effect of vaccine. I'm sure Pfizer would prefer perpetual mandatory boosters because thats a fat revenue stream.
        elzbardico 5y ago
        Nops, because of antigenic imprinting. From the wiki (that prefers the annoying name Original Antigenic Sin, probably invented by a theist) "Original antigenic sin, also known as antigenic imprinting or the Hoskins effect,[1] refers to the propensity of the body's immune system to preferentially utilize immunological memory based on a previous infection when a second slightly different version of that foreign pathogen (e.g. a virus or bacterium) is encountered. This leaves the immune system "trapped" by the first response it has made to each antigen, and unable to mount potentially more effective responses during subsequent infections. Antibodies or T-cells induced during infections with the first variant of the pathogen are subject to a form of original antigenic sin, termed repertoire freeze." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin
        5y ago
      - elzbardico 5y ago
        Not sure if there are studies, but I don't think it likely. It is almost natural to suppose that infection confers a broader antigenic stimuli than just a single spike protein for a single variant.
    - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
      > Everyone will need boosters at least once per year in perpetuity if they want to maintain any reasonable amount of protection At 6 months, there's a stark difference between VE against infection versus VE against hospitalization. What endpoint should we really care about? Constantly boosting a non-sterilizing vaccine that is apparently still highly effective at reducing the risk of severe outcomes is mind boggling. There are people getting breakthrough infections just 2-4 months after their second dose. Look at how much drama has been generated trying to get people to take an initial vaccination series. The idea that vaccination campaigns for perpetual boosters every 3-6 months could ever be widely successful is absurd. It just isn't going to happen. It's pretty obvious that virtually everyone is going to get this thing at some point even if they've been vaccinated, and eventually public health officials will have no choice but to accept that natural immunity is a real thing.
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        I recall all the way back in March public health “experts” said that everybody was gonna get it. That was the idea behind “flatten the curve” to keep everybody from getting it at once… Dunno how society forgot that.
ostenning 5y ago
Well, the infrastructure is now in place. At a whim, the government can strip back freedoms of people and claim it is for the greater good. It wont matter if you have had 2 injections of Pfizer in the past, the government soon will deem you completely unvaccinated and take away your freedoms without looking at your demographics or your previous vaccination status. Insanity.
- chuckSu 5y ago
  k
- akomtu 5y ago
  That's the new "unholy" - a fluid term outside of the law framework and defined by a few random joes who got to wear the "authority badge". I can totally see this new "holiness" getting extended to flu vaccines (with kickbacks from the flu vaccine manufacturers)I
- rat87 5y ago
  Who said at a whim? We need everyone to be vaccinated. I don't see anything different between requiring vaccination and requiring boosters
  - helge9210 5y ago
    > We need everyone to be vaccinated. I don't need this. How is that your needs have a higher priority than mine?
    - xxpor 5y ago
      Because the political coalition in power, supported by the voters in the county, says so. It's really that simple.
      - peteradio 5y ago
        At least in the U.S. the actions being taken by our federal Executive are plainly illegal. So it hardly matters what the voters want if they can't get our Congress to pass an appropriate law enabling this. If your State Governor wants to mandate something then go for it.
effie 5y ago
You can't comply your way out of tyranny. Perhaps this change in rules will help more people to see this.
- malermeister 5y ago
  You can't "muh freedom" your way out of a pandemic.
  - theandrewbailey 5y ago
    At this rate, we can't anything out of this pandemic.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    Especially if you're dead.
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Unless you're old, obese or diabetic, your chance of dying is pretty low. For someone in their 30's, probably less than the flu. And even if you're 80 years old, it is not a death sentence. Stop acting like this is Ebola. It is not.
      - maxerickson 5y ago
        That's roughly half the population there. And a less lethal but highly transmissible virus is clearly worse than Ebola in some ways. We routinely contain Ebola outbreaks, they don't kill millions of people. The largest outbreak infected less than 30,000 people.
  - muhvax 5y ago
    Can't "muh vax" it either apparently. Enjoy your boosters forever :) If we're lucky this little war will be as costly and effective as Afghanistan. We've got to give up just a little freedom, spend a little more money, but its only short term right?
txsoftwaredev 5y ago
And soon in the US if you don't have a booster you'll be considered dirty and unvaxxed. They will just keep moving the pole as long as they are allowed.
- malermeister 5y ago
  Thank god.
- rat87 5y ago
  You mean until the pandemic is done?
  - helge9210 5y ago
    How long will this take, exactly?
    - gr678 5y ago
      Shortly after drugs and terror are defeated probably.
    - junon 5y ago
      Pandemics last on average 5-7 years according to the RKI. This is with adequate medical response though. Idiots who think they're above the vaccine make that last longer.
  - akomtu 5y ago
    It will be done about the same time the flu pandemic is done.
supperburg 5y ago
I got one dose of JJ and i was feeling so sick that it was difficult to stand up for two days. The idea of doing that routinely is insane to me.
- throwntoday 5y ago
  I got covid in march. I had a fever for two days, about two weeks of congestion and mucus, and loss of taste/smell for a month. I had two antibody tests done, july and september. I was positive on both. Got the J&J in setember because it was becoming impossible to do anything without a vaccine card and it was worse than covid. One and a half days of chills, fever, sweating. Whatever antibodies I got from my vaccine will probably disappear before my natural ones. I still don't understand the point of getting people who had a natural immunity to get vaccinated. There is little to no evidence natural immunity is worse, and compelling evidence it is superior to a vaccine (see: Israel study). I remain convinced the CDC is in bed with the pharma companies producing the vaccines.
  - effie 5y ago
    Vaccine-induced or natural immunity isn't just about antibodies. Immune system gets to remember the spike protein (vaccine) and other characteristics of the virus (natural immunity) so even if antibodies go down, the body remembers and can create new antibodies on next encounter. So you still have some immunity benefit. Agreed on natural immunity, it would be very unexpected and weird if it was substantially worse than vaccine-induced immunity. And there isn't any evidence of that, afaik.
    - throwntoday 5y ago
      And yet Wolenski, Fauci, the CDC, continue to "reccommend" people get vaccinated regardless of natural immunity and refused to answer the senate on whether they think those with natural immunity should be exempt from vaccine mandates.
      - effie 5y ago
elzbardico 5y ago
All of this would have been avoided if we kept the vaccine only for the groups that are high risk. Is absurdly pathetic to see healthy, relatively people in their 20's and 30's terribly scared of covid-19 as if it was ebola. Well, for you it is not, it never was. Yes, you can get it and you can die, it is possible, but this is a very unlikely outcome to you. We should never ever created this level of fear to vaccinate people with a leaky vaccine, that is based in a few spike proteins from a single variant. For the downvoters: Please show me numbers from the CDC proving me wrong.
- c0balt 5y ago
  Maybe people in their 20's to 30's are not only being anxious about the direct chance that they could die but of other side effects too? Long covid alias long lasting damages such as impaired taste that have a high impact on your life and are a good reason to get vaccinated against. Just because they most likely won't die, doesn't mean that it will be easy nor that it will be without other nasty side-effects. The vaccine has also been limited AFAIK to high-risk groups in most countries before being available to 'healthy' people. Vaccinating them will also improve the chance for other vaccinated high-risk groups to be infected less and as such help those groups over all in the long term.
  - miles 5y ago
    > Vaccinating them will also improve the chance for other vaccinated high-risk groups to be infected less Viral Loads Similar Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-sim... UK study finds vaccinated people easily transmit Delta variant in households https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/uk-study-finds-vaccinated-people-easily-transmit-delta-variant-households-2021-10-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
    - c0balt 5y ago
      Hmm, my comment was meant to reference eeard immunity, but it's interesting that the virus load remains the same. Thank your for linking sources. Though even if the virus load is the same, it doesn't change the (in most cases) shorter duration people are emitting the virus.

48 points by Markoff 5y ago

blub 5y ago

This was exactly one of the concerns of those of us that criticized AstaZeneca in the past and wanted to wait for Biontech/Pfizer - that the vaccine will be considered second rate. It was of course dismissed, just like the concerns about the blood clots were in the beginning. Also recently several countries started recommending against using Moderna for under 30s due to the higher risk of heart issues compared to Biontech/Pfizer.

elzbardico 5y ago
From the data in Israel it is clear that Pfizer's efficacy vanes over time, thus the need for boosters. So, it is not because J&J is second rate. We will probably need boosters while there's high prevalence of the virus.
- collias 5y ago
  Pfizer’s own data says the same thing. The safety and efficacy study they did shows that efficacy drops by about 6% every 2 months. Everyone will need boosters at least once per year in perpetuity if they want to maintain any reasonable amount of protection. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v...
  - akomtu 5y ago
    Does natural immunity wane off at the same rate?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
      It doesn't look like it. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... > SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were previously infected.
      - akomtu 5y ago
        So it's better to get natural immunity while under the effect of vaccine. I'm sure Pfizer would prefer perpetual mandatory boosters because thats a fat revenue stream.
        elzbardico 5y ago
        Nops, because of antigenic imprinting. From the wiki (that prefers the annoying name Original Antigenic Sin, probably invented by a theist) "Original antigenic sin, also known as antigenic imprinting or the Hoskins effect,[1] refers to the propensity of the body's immune system to preferentially utilize immunological memory based on a previous infection when a second slightly different version of that foreign pathogen (e.g. a virus or bacterium) is encountered. This leaves the immune system "trapped" by the first response it has made to each antigen, and unable to mount potentially more effective responses during subsequent infections. Antibodies or T-cells induced during infections with the first variant of the pathogen are subject to a form of original antigenic sin, termed repertoire freeze." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin
        5y ago
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Not sure if there are studies, but I don't think it likely. It is almost natural to suppose that infection confers a broader antigenic stimuli than just a single spike protein for a single variant.
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    > Everyone will need boosters at least once per year in perpetuity if they want to maintain any reasonable amount of protection At 6 months, there's a stark difference between VE against infection versus VE against hospitalization. What endpoint should we really care about? Constantly boosting a non-sterilizing vaccine that is apparently still highly effective at reducing the risk of severe outcomes is mind boggling. There are people getting breakthrough infections just 2-4 months after their second dose. Look at how much drama has been generated trying to get people to take an initial vaccination series. The idea that vaccination campaigns for perpetual boosters every 3-6 months could ever be widely successful is absurd. It just isn't going to happen. It's pretty obvious that virtually everyone is going to get this thing at some point even if they've been vaccinated, and eventually public health officials will have no choice but to accept that natural immunity is a real thing.
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      I recall all the way back in March public health “experts” said that everybody was gonna get it. That was the idea behind “flatten the curve” to keep everybody from getting it at once… Dunno how society forgot that.

ostenning 5y ago

Well, the infrastructure is now in place. At a whim, the government can strip back freedoms of people and claim it is for the greater good. It wont matter if you have had 2 injections of Pfizer in the past, the government soon will deem you completely unvaccinated and take away your freedoms without looking at your demographics or your previous vaccination status. Insanity.

chuckSu 5y ago
k
akomtu 5y ago
That's the new "unholy" - a fluid term outside of the law framework and defined by a few random joes who got to wear the "authority badge". I can totally see this new "holiness" getting extended to flu vaccines (with kickbacks from the flu vaccine manufacturers)I
rat87 5y ago
Who said at a whim? We need everyone to be vaccinated. I don't see anything different between requiring vaccination and requiring boosters
- helge9210 5y ago
  > We need everyone to be vaccinated. I don't need this. How is that your needs have a higher priority than mine?
  - xxpor 5y ago
    Because the political coalition in power, supported by the voters in the county, says so. It's really that simple.
    - peteradio 5y ago
      At least in the U.S. the actions being taken by our federal Executive are plainly illegal. So it hardly matters what the voters want if they can't get our Congress to pass an appropriate law enabling this. If your State Governor wants to mandate something then go for it.

effie 5y ago

You can't comply your way out of tyranny. Perhaps this change in rules will help more people to see this.

malermeister 5y ago
You can't "muh freedom" your way out of a pandemic.
- theandrewbailey 5y ago
  At this rate, we can't anything out of this pandemic.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  Especially if you're dead.
  - elzbardico 5y ago
    Unless you're old, obese or diabetic, your chance of dying is pretty low. For someone in their 30's, probably less than the flu. And even if you're 80 years old, it is not a death sentence. Stop acting like this is Ebola. It is not.
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      That's roughly half the population there. And a less lethal but highly transmissible virus is clearly worse than Ebola in some ways. We routinely contain Ebola outbreaks, they don't kill millions of people. The largest outbreak infected less than 30,000 people.
- muhvax 5y ago
  Can't "muh vax" it either apparently. Enjoy your boosters forever :) If we're lucky this little war will be as costly and effective as Afghanistan. We've got to give up just a little freedom, spend a little more money, but its only short term right?

txsoftwaredev 5y ago

And soon in the US if you don't have a booster you'll be considered dirty and unvaxxed. They will just keep moving the pole as long as they are allowed.

malermeister 5y ago
Thank god.
rat87 5y ago
You mean until the pandemic is done?
- helge9210 5y ago
  How long will this take, exactly?
  - gr678 5y ago
    Shortly after drugs and terror are defeated probably.
  - junon 5y ago
    Pandemics last on average 5-7 years according to the RKI. This is with adequate medical response though. Idiots who think they're above the vaccine make that last longer.
- akomtu 5y ago
  It will be done about the same time the flu pandemic is done.

supperburg 5y ago

I got one dose of JJ and i was feeling so sick that it was difficult to stand up for two days. The idea of doing that routinely is insane to me.

throwntoday 5y ago
I got covid in march. I had a fever for two days, about two weeks of congestion and mucus, and loss of taste/smell for a month. I had two antibody tests done, july and september. I was positive on both. Got the J&J in setember because it was becoming impossible to do anything without a vaccine card and it was worse than covid. One and a half days of chills, fever, sweating. Whatever antibodies I got from my vaccine will probably disappear before my natural ones. I still don't understand the point of getting people who had a natural immunity to get vaccinated. There is little to no evidence natural immunity is worse, and compelling evidence it is superior to a vaccine (see: Israel study). I remain convinced the CDC is in bed with the pharma companies producing the vaccines.
- effie 5y ago
  Vaccine-induced or natural immunity isn't just about antibodies. Immune system gets to remember the spike protein (vaccine) and other characteristics of the virus (natural immunity) so even if antibodies go down, the body remembers and can create new antibodies on next encounter. So you still have some immunity benefit. Agreed on natural immunity, it would be very unexpected and weird if it was substantially worse than vaccine-induced immunity. And there isn't any evidence of that, afaik.
  - throwntoday 5y ago
    And yet Wolenski, Fauci, the CDC, continue to "reccommend" people get vaccinated regardless of natural immunity and refused to answer the senate on whether they think those with natural immunity should be exempt from vaccine mandates.
    - effie 5y ago

elzbardico 5y ago

All of this would have been avoided if we kept the vaccine only for the groups that are high risk. Is absurdly pathetic to see healthy, relatively people in their 20's and 30's terribly scared of covid-19 as if it was ebola. Well, for you it is not, it never was. Yes, you can get it and you can die, it is possible, but this is a very unlikely outcome to you. We should never ever created this level of fear to vaccinate people with a leaky vaccine, that is based in a few spike proteins from a single variant. For the downvoters: Please show me numbers from the CDC proving me wrong.

c0balt 5y ago
Maybe people in their 20's to 30's are not only being anxious about the direct chance that they could die but of other side effects too? Long covid alias long lasting damages such as impaired taste that have a high impact on your life and are a good reason to get vaccinated against. Just because they most likely won't die, doesn't mean that it will be easy nor that it will be without other nasty side-effects. The vaccine has also been limited AFAIK to high-risk groups in most countries before being available to 'healthy' people. Vaccinating them will also improve the chance for other vaccinated high-risk groups to be infected less and as such help those groups over all in the long term.
- miles 5y ago
  > Vaccinating them will also improve the chance for other vaccinated high-risk groups to be infected less Viral Loads Similar Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-sim... UK study finds vaccinated people easily transmit Delta variant in households https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/uk-study-finds-vaccinated-people-easily-transmit-delta-variant-households-2021-10-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
  - c0balt 5y ago
    Hmm, my comment was meant to reference eeard immunity, but it's interesting that the virus load remains the same. Thank your for linking sources. Though even if the virus load is the same, it doesn't change the (in most cases) shorter duration people are emitting the virus.