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Reminds me of the story of Zhuangzi, the Chinese philosopher, on how one thing can be used in very different ways: There was once a man from Song who was skil

Reminds me of the story of Zhuangzi, the Chinese philosopher, on how one thing can be used in very different ways: There was once a man from Song who was skilled at making ointment for chapped hands. For generations, his family had made their living by washing raw silk. A traveler happened to hear of it and offered to purchase the formula for a hundred catties of gold. The man called his family into conference and said, ‘For generations we’ve made our living washing silk and never earned more than a few pieces gold. Now we can sell our formula and earn a hundred catties of gold in an instant. Let’s give it to him!’ Once the traveler had the formula, he went to the court of Wu to persuade the king to use it in dealing with his troublesome neighbor state of Yue. The king put him in command of his forces to engage Yue’s navy in a midwinter river battle and the forces of Yue were routed. The King of Wu carved a slice from his newly gained territory and rewarded the traveler with a fief. The traveler and the silk washer were alike in possessing the formula of preventing chapped hands; one used it to gain a fief, the other to wash silk – it was in the use of the thing that they differed." [1] [1] https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat3/sub10/entry-5581.html https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat3/sub10/entry-5581.html

riddleronroof 5y ago
Plot twist: thé travelled was Bill Gates.
AussieWog93 5y ago
For anyone else who is unfamiliar with old Chinese measurement systems, Wikipedia specifies the catty at around 600g. This means that the family received about 60kg of gold, or around US$3.6m at today's spot prices - a handsome reward for their valuable formula. Even in the ancient proverbs, capitalism is the optimal way to allocate resources, and this efficient allocation benefits all. Someone should let Xi know about this. ;)
- vimacs2 5y ago
  Yes, very efficient. Meanwhile nearly all of the peasantry subsisted on rice and suffered from malnutrition and frequent birth defects. Also, this has nothing to do with capitalism. It's just exchange of money which had existed long before that system first developed in the city states of Italy.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    Gottem
14 5y ago
As a dad I can tell you I often have to use a bowl for a cup or the handle of a wide handled for for a spoon. For some reason that always drove my partner nuts. Guess her solution was to wash the dishes lol.
kaybe 5y ago
That doesn't sound fair. I don't think the army would have been successful with the ointment alone. Ointment doesn't make you a competent army commander. You can make the same argument with most things - food, a warm cloak, knowledge about the weather.. all those things that make survival and even comfort possible.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That's all true, but given that both parties were evenly matched before picking winter to do battle required something to tip the advantage to the attacker who picked that time because they had a solution to the problem of dealing with chapped hands, which in the age of manual combat may well have been of such importance that the outcome was all but certain. Asterix joke: "The Romans, upon learning that the English requested a daily ceasefire from 2pm to 4pm because they were having tea decided to attack only between 2pm and 4pm". Obviously, that's fictional but you get the idea.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    somebody is wrong on the internet and IT'S YOU!!! In Asterix in Britain https://asterix.fandom.com/wiki/Asterix_in_Britain https://asterix.fandom.com/wiki/Asterix_in_Britain the Romans attack during the time the British are having their hot water - with maybe a little bit of milk in it. Before the final battle when all seems to be lost because the barrel of magic potion was sunk in the river Asterix announces that they have the makings of the magic potion (pulling some herbs out of his pocket) - synopsis from link above: "Finally reaching the independent village, Asterix eases the Britons' disappointment by claiming he carries herbs to remake the potion; these are later revealed to be tea. With a psychological boost, the village prevails against the Romans. Asterix and Obelix return home to the inevitable feast. The Britons like the tea so much, they proclaim it shall be their national drink."
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Ah yes, of course! The tea was revealed on the last page only. My memory isn't entirely bit-rot proof and it's been a good 47 years since I last read that particular story.
ctchocula 5y ago
I may be a bit slow today, but how did the traveler use a formula for chapped hands ointment to persuade the king of Wu to use it in dealing with troublesome neighbor state of Yue?
- ed 5y ago
  The ointment gave them a tactical advantage against the Yue, who couldn’t fight with chapped hands
- tm-guimaraes 5y ago
  Ointment is very important in the sea, specially on the winter cold rain, and those old boats that need much more manual labour. I remember seeing ads on some hands ointment that basically said "this is the number one choice by norway's fisherman"
  - 867-5309 5y ago
    https://www.selfpharma.com/en/brand/307-neutrogena https://www.selfpharma.com/en/brand/307-neutrogena
- markus_zhang 5y ago
  It's probably a story to move the argument forward. But I can explain as the original Chinese version needs a bit of interpretation. Basically the formula can help soldiers fight during winter so whoever has it has an advantage over the other side. BTW the Chinese version if anyone is interested: 宋人有善为不龟手之药者，世世以洴澼絖为事。客闻之，请买其方百金。聚族而谋曰：『我世世为洴澼絖，不过数金；今一朝而鬻技百金，请与之。』客得之，以说吴王。越有难，吴王使之将，冬与越人水战，大败越人，裂地而封之。 Also to answer the other question why a traveller may have the skills to lead an army. So first I think this is just a story because I can't anything recorded in history regarding this battle. Secondly, many "travellers" during that time were strategists who were either of aristocratic origin or very rich. They made their livelihood to persuade kings to follow their advices and make profit (in money, fame and land) from it. Some of them probably were rich enough to own small armies so technically they could lead armies for kings. But again this is probably a story Zhuangzi made up to "prove" his point.
elcomet 5y ago
> The king put him in command of his forces to engage Yue’s navy in a midwinter river battle and the forces of Yue were routed The story is nice but some details ruin it IMO.. How would a salesman know how to command an army ? Also, the success of an army depends on a huge number of factors, not only dryness of hands.. Military strategy seems more important than hands
- biofox 5y ago
  Dry socks win battles
- powerapple 5y ago
  During that time, travelers are people have knowledge and skills, are looking for opportunity to serve a king. One would travel country to country and find a king who value his knowledge.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > Military strategy seems more important than hands Can't wield weapons without hands.
  - marginalia_nu 5y ago
    Not with that attitude.
- arbitrabbit 5y ago
  The traveler’s name was Strider.
- ppseafield 5y ago
  This is essentially a parable nested in another story to make a very specific point. The story this appears in shows Huizi complaining to Zhuangzi about some extremely massive gourds that he couldn't use as one might use as e.g. a ladle, so he get frustrated and smashes them. Zhuangzi comments that obviously they would be better as floating vessels, and Huizi could have floated down the river in them. All that to make a more general point: if you have the wrong expectations for the way something is, you're going to suffer because of those expectations. The silk-washing family was frustrated because they believed the balm could only be used in one way which kept them very poor and worn out. Huizi suffered because he was gifted seeds for some very large gourds, but expected to use them like normal-sized gourds, and eventually destroyed the gift after expending much time and effort on them.
xwdv 5y ago
One used it for personal gain, the other used it in service of his country.
- pxc 5y ago
  one used it to relieve his neighbors, the other used it to relieve professional killers
  - xwdv 5y ago
    one had the knowledge, the other had the vision
    - pxc 5y ago
      I had to laugh out loud at the unrelenting darkness of that response well done
intricatedetail 5y ago
Today the traveller would buy regulatory capture so that himself only could produce the ointment.
FarhadG 5y ago
(Author Here) Thank you for sharing. Very strange that I've heard of Zhuangzi from various interesting folks but have rarely found much info on him.
- jhedwards 5y ago
  The book that bears his name is very old and its origins are mysterious. There very well could have been a philosopher named Zhuangzi who wrote down (or had his pupils write down) his dialogues and stories, or he could have been a fictitious character that formed the nucleus of an oral tradition, it's really hard to say.
  - FarhadG 5y ago
    (Author here) I recall a very close (and successful) friend that was deeply inspired by his works. She used to tell me how so many of the most powerful men in Chinese history were either tutored or influenced by Zhuangzi but it's kept secret within the Chinese history.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  His philosophical fingerprints are everywhere. He is the originator of the ideas thought to be modern such as the matrix. https://www.philosophy-foundation.org/enquiries/view/the-butterfly-dream https://www.philosophy-foundation.org/enquiries/view/the-but... > Chuang Tzu was a philosopher in ancient China, who, one night went to sleep and dreamed that he was a butterfly. He dreamt that he was flying around from flower to flower and while he was dreaming he felt free, blown about by the breeze hither and thither. He was quite sure that he was a butterfly. But when he awoke he realised that he had just been dreaming, and that he was really Chuang Tzu dreaming he was a butterfly. But then Chuang Tzu asked himself the following question: "was I Chuang Tzu dreaming I was a butterfly or am I now really a butterfly dreaming that I am Chuang Tzu?"
spywaregorilla 5y ago
This story seems really weird by modern standards. The silk washer gets a great deal. The traveler could likely have offered far, far less because the value he saw wasn't obvious at all to the silk washer. Traditional storytelling would probably have suggested that the silk washer was naive and suffered for it, but he comes out great in this story. The traveler takes a huge risk in assuming this will prove to be a hugely important military asset, and I guess comes out ahead, but he was already in a position to pay this dude hundreds of catties of gold so... did it really make a difference?
- jareklupinski 5y ago
  i have a feeling something got lost in translation; i got the same impression i think we're just used to these 'fables' having some sort of downside for the person who accepted the quick buck, like the gold turned out to be worthless because the person that bought the formula became poor from mis-using it or whatever maybe the lesson is "sometimes payday does come" ;)
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    haha yeah. It's definitely the quote. The guy exclaims how he is going to get rich quick and how great it is... and then that's the last we hear of him, so I guess it all worked out
    - jareklupinski 5y ago
      personally i would love to hear more stories like that haha
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Simple. Think big. He valued it enough to know about naval problems to know its huge value, and wasn’t unfair and left the silk washer whole. The silk seller’s motivation out of poverty was noted, solved by the traveler and not unfairly so he was “bought” and cooperated fully with what was a great deal for him, which lubricates away resentment, half effort, and unhappiness because giving a good deal to someone is similar to “buy once, cry once”. Negotiating costs time, energy, and paying less might not yield the full secret especially if the seller feels taken advantage of so he also will do his best not to cooperate. Imagine if Steve Jobs paid Woz half the profits with what he knew.
forbiddenvoid 5y ago
This is the kind of story that people use in strong support of Capitalism as a system, and it falls flat for me because it just reads like 'rich man with connections uses his wealth and connections to become richer by exploiting the labor of a poorer man without wealth and connections.'
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 5y ago
  It could fall flatter if he had stolen the formula. That's what I'd expect from movie version, wouldn't you?

riddleronroof 5y ago

Plot twist: thé travelled was Bill Gates.

AussieWog93 5y ago

For anyone else who is unfamiliar with old Chinese measurement systems, Wikipedia specifies the catty at around 600g. This means that the family received about 60kg of gold, or around US$3.6m at today's spot prices - a handsome reward for their valuable formula. Even in the ancient proverbs, capitalism is the optimal way to allocate resources, and this efficient allocation benefits all. Someone should let Xi know about this. ;)

vimacs2 5y ago
Yes, very efficient. Meanwhile nearly all of the peasantry subsisted on rice and suffered from malnutrition and frequent birth defects. Also, this has nothing to do with capitalism. It's just exchange of money which had existed long before that system first developed in the city states of Italy.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  Gottem

14 5y ago

As a dad I can tell you I often have to use a bowl for a cup or the handle of a wide handled for for a spoon. For some reason that always drove my partner nuts. Guess her solution was to wash the dishes lol.

kaybe 5y ago

That doesn't sound fair. I don't think the army would have been successful with the ointment alone. Ointment doesn't make you a competent army commander. You can make the same argument with most things - food, a warm cloak, knowledge about the weather.. all those things that make survival and even comfort possible.

jacquesm 5y ago
That's all true, but given that both parties were evenly matched before picking winter to do battle required something to tip the advantage to the attacker who picked that time because they had a solution to the problem of dealing with chapped hands, which in the age of manual combat may well have been of such importance that the outcome was all but certain. Asterix joke: "The Romans, upon learning that the English requested a daily ceasefire from 2pm to 4pm because they were having tea decided to attack only between 2pm and 4pm". Obviously, that's fictional but you get the idea.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  somebody is wrong on the internet and IT'S YOU!!! In Asterix in Britain https://asterix.fandom.com/wiki/Asterix_in_Britain https://asterix.fandom.com/wiki/Asterix_in_Britain the Romans attack during the time the British are having their hot water - with maybe a little bit of milk in it. Before the final battle when all seems to be lost because the barrel of magic potion was sunk in the river Asterix announces that they have the makings of the magic potion (pulling some herbs out of his pocket) - synopsis from link above: "Finally reaching the independent village, Asterix eases the Britons' disappointment by claiming he carries herbs to remake the potion; these are later revealed to be tea. With a psychological boost, the village prevails against the Romans. Asterix and Obelix return home to the inevitable feast. The Britons like the tea so much, they proclaim it shall be their national drink."
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Ah yes, of course! The tea was revealed on the last page only. My memory isn't entirely bit-rot proof and it's been a good 47 years since I last read that particular story.

ctchocula 5y ago

I may be a bit slow today, but how did the traveler use a formula for chapped hands ointment to persuade the king of Wu to use it in dealing with troublesome neighbor state of Yue?

ed 5y ago
The ointment gave them a tactical advantage against the Yue, who couldn’t fight with chapped hands
tm-guimaraes 5y ago
Ointment is very important in the sea, specially on the winter cold rain, and those old boats that need much more manual labour. I remember seeing ads on some hands ointment that basically said "this is the number one choice by norway's fisherman"
- 867-5309 5y ago
  https://www.selfpharma.com/en/brand/307-neutrogena https://www.selfpharma.com/en/brand/307-neutrogena
markus_zhang 5y ago
It's probably a story to move the argument forward. But I can explain as the original Chinese version needs a bit of interpretation. Basically the formula can help soldiers fight during winter so whoever has it has an advantage over the other side. BTW the Chinese version if anyone is interested: 宋人有善为不龟手之药者，世世以洴澼絖为事。客闻之，请买其方百金。聚族而谋曰：『我世世为洴澼絖，不过数金；今一朝而鬻技百金，请与之。』客得之，以说吴王。越有难，吴王使之将，冬与越人水战，大败越人，裂地而封之。 Also to answer the other question why a traveller may have the skills to lead an army. So first I think this is just a story because I can't anything recorded in history regarding this battle. Secondly, many "travellers" during that time were strategists who were either of aristocratic origin or very rich. They made their livelihood to persuade kings to follow their advices and make profit (in money, fame and land) from it. Some of them probably were rich enough to own small armies so technically they could lead armies for kings. But again this is probably a story Zhuangzi made up to "prove" his point.

elcomet 5y ago

> The king put him in command of his forces to engage Yue’s navy in a midwinter river battle and the forces of Yue were routed The story is nice but some details ruin it IMO.. How would a salesman know how to command an army ? Also, the success of an army depends on a huge number of factors, not only dryness of hands.. Military strategy seems more important than hands

biofox 5y ago
Dry socks win battles
powerapple 5y ago
During that time, travelers are people have knowledge and skills, are looking for opportunity to serve a king. One would travel country to country and find a king who value his knowledge.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> Military strategy seems more important than hands Can't wield weapons without hands.
- marginalia_nu 5y ago
  Not with that attitude.
arbitrabbit 5y ago
The traveler’s name was Strider.
ppseafield 5y ago
This is essentially a parable nested in another story to make a very specific point. The story this appears in shows Huizi complaining to Zhuangzi about some extremely massive gourds that he couldn't use as one might use as e.g. a ladle, so he get frustrated and smashes them. Zhuangzi comments that obviously they would be better as floating vessels, and Huizi could have floated down the river in them. All that to make a more general point: if you have the wrong expectations for the way something is, you're going to suffer because of those expectations. The silk-washing family was frustrated because they believed the balm could only be used in one way which kept them very poor and worn out. Huizi suffered because he was gifted seeds for some very large gourds, but expected to use them like normal-sized gourds, and eventually destroyed the gift after expending much time and effort on them.

xwdv 5y ago

One used it for personal gain, the other used it in service of his country.

pxc 5y ago
one used it to relieve his neighbors, the other used it to relieve professional killers
- xwdv 5y ago
  one had the knowledge, the other had the vision
  - pxc 5y ago
    I had to laugh out loud at the unrelenting darkness of that response well done

intricatedetail 5y ago

Today the traveller would buy regulatory capture so that himself only could produce the ointment.

FarhadG 5y ago

(Author Here) Thank you for sharing. Very strange that I've heard of Zhuangzi from various interesting folks but have rarely found much info on him.

jhedwards 5y ago
The book that bears his name is very old and its origins are mysterious. There very well could have been a philosopher named Zhuangzi who wrote down (or had his pupils write down) his dialogues and stories, or he could have been a fictitious character that formed the nucleus of an oral tradition, it's really hard to say.
- FarhadG 5y ago
  (Author here) I recall a very close (and successful) friend that was deeply inspired by his works. She used to tell me how so many of the most powerful men in Chinese history were either tutored or influenced by Zhuangzi but it's kept secret within the Chinese history.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
His philosophical fingerprints are everywhere. He is the originator of the ideas thought to be modern such as the matrix. https://www.philosophy-foundation.org/enquiries/view/the-butterfly-dream https://www.philosophy-foundation.org/enquiries/view/the-but... > Chuang Tzu was a philosopher in ancient China, who, one night went to sleep and dreamed that he was a butterfly. He dreamt that he was flying around from flower to flower and while he was dreaming he felt free, blown about by the breeze hither and thither. He was quite sure that he was a butterfly. But when he awoke he realised that he had just been dreaming, and that he was really Chuang Tzu dreaming he was a butterfly. But then Chuang Tzu asked himself the following question: "was I Chuang Tzu dreaming I was a butterfly or am I now really a butterfly dreaming that I am Chuang Tzu?"

spywaregorilla 5y ago

This story seems really weird by modern standards. The silk washer gets a great deal. The traveler could likely have offered far, far less because the value he saw wasn't obvious at all to the silk washer. Traditional storytelling would probably have suggested that the silk washer was naive and suffered for it, but he comes out great in this story. The traveler takes a huge risk in assuming this will prove to be a hugely important military asset, and I guess comes out ahead, but he was already in a position to pay this dude hundreds of catties of gold so... did it really make a difference?

jareklupinski 5y ago
i have a feeling something got lost in translation; i got the same impression i think we're just used to these 'fables' having some sort of downside for the person who accepted the quick buck, like the gold turned out to be worthless because the person that bought the formula became poor from mis-using it or whatever maybe the lesson is "sometimes payday does come" ;)
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  haha yeah. It's definitely the quote. The guy exclaims how he is going to get rich quick and how great it is... and then that's the last we hear of him, so I guess it all worked out
  - jareklupinski 5y ago
    personally i would love to hear more stories like that haha
GhettoComputers 5y ago
Simple. Think big. He valued it enough to know about naval problems to know its huge value, and wasn’t unfair and left the silk washer whole. The silk seller’s motivation out of poverty was noted, solved by the traveler and not unfairly so he was “bought” and cooperated fully with what was a great deal for him, which lubricates away resentment, half effort, and unhappiness because giving a good deal to someone is similar to “buy once, cry once”. Negotiating costs time, energy, and paying less might not yield the full secret especially if the seller feels taken advantage of so he also will do his best not to cooperate. Imagine if Steve Jobs paid Woz half the profits with what he knew.

forbiddenvoid 5y ago

This is the kind of story that people use in strong support of Capitalism as a system, and it falls flat for me because it just reads like 'rich man with connections uses his wealth and connections to become richer by exploiting the labor of a poorer man without wealth and connections.'

0xdeadbeefbabe 5y ago
It could fall flatter if he had stolen the formula. That's what I'd expect from movie version, wouldn't you?