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>Tesla has also proven that traditional automakers really struggle to keep up with the electric car race - from software to supply chain. Hardly, Tesla has pro

by tw04 5y ago

>Tesla has also proven that traditional automakers really struggle to keep up with the electric car race - from software to supply chain. Hardly, Tesla has proven that they were right betting on electric being the future. SuperCruise by most accounts is ahead of "FSD" in real-world driving. GM has pivoted in less than 5 years to what it took Tesla 18 years to build. 5 years from now we can have a conversation about whether GM/Ford/Stellantis can compete or not. Saying that Tesla has some unsurmountable lead when the big 3 have literally just started releasing their first round of EVs is silly. Having test driven a Mach-E and a Model-Y, I would wager the non-tesla fanboy will choose the Mach-E every time. Nicer interior, similar enough performance, and a manufacturer that has a history of actually having parts to fix cars when something breaks. The horror stories of cars sitting for months waiting on basic parts from Tesla is enough to make me think twice about ever owning one.

andreilys 5y ago
SuperCruise by most accounts is ahead of "FSD" in real-world driving. Source? SuperCruise is geofenced to highways, so it can't even drive in areas that FSD can so I'm not sure this is the right comparison.
- mellavora 5y ago
  what areas can FSD drive in?
  - leesec 5y ago
    I don't even have the FSD beta but my autopilot can turn on anywhere there's lane lines basically.
  - beambot 5y ago
    Apples don't have orange skin.
- ajross 5y ago
  Yeah, this is a meme that circulates in the $TSLAQ world, often appearing alongside shrieks of "Panel Gaps!". There really isn't a source, Super Cruise just isn't very available in public yet (just a tiny handful of cars have it, with probably less than 20k users). The core of the point is generally that Tesla AP is deployed as a hands-on solution, requiring regular steering wheel input (just twisting the wheel a bit), where GM ships this in cars with cameras pointed at the driver (Tesla has them too now, though the wheel nags still exist) that take the entire monitoring load. That makes it "hands free", and therefore better. This is often combined with a conflation of "hands free" with SAE L3 Autonomy (which isn't correct) to try to emphasize the point, skipping the fact that the hands-free areas are limited just just a few hand-vetted highways. All Tesla would need to do to compete with that feature would be to implement the same geofencing, basically. But that's not where they're aiming. I mean, in the real world, AP is pretty amazing and SC is mostly vaporware. My car took me 429 miles last Thursday and the only input required beyond wheel nags was some editorial differences I had with it about proper lane selection (and even then, I was only right about 60% of the time).
reacharavindh 5y ago
It’s never a single winner in the market. Sure, Tesla may be superior in some regards(battery tech, better motors) that are critical to an EV, but other car makers bring something else to the table while being reasonably close on range. I for one don’t like the Tesla “All in a single touch screen” interface. Neither do I want my car to constantly update its firmware automatically(chasing a wild auto driving fantasy and SV dreams). I just want my car as an effective tool and be open. I’d love to use CarPlay like on other cars… Tesla? Not to say that other car makers are perfect. Competition is always good for the consumer.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  > I’d love to use CarPlay like on other cars… Tesla? Wow, I didn't know Tesla didn't support CarPlay. That + Android Auto seems like table stakes in a 2021 luxury (or even mid-range) sedan.
  - brianwawok 5y ago
    It would be worse than built in nav. No super charger knowledge.
    - reacharavindh 5y ago
      Nothing wrong with having their kid-ass nav system with supercharger routing. Why not _also_ develop CarPlay and Android Auto apps for it and let users use CarPlay and Android Auto like other car manufacturers?
      - brianwawok 5y ago
        Other car makers don't already have a functional UI. I have used all three, and much prefer the tesla UI.
martythemaniak 5y ago
First, you mean Autopilot vs SuperCruise. FSD is only available to a few thousand people in a closed beta and it can do things (drive around a city, or parking lot) that SC cannot attempt (it is geofenced to highways) Second, legacy OEMs have been releasing their "first EV" for 5 years now. The Bolt beat the Model 3 to market and was hailed (as all these were) as Tesla Killer. Sounds funny today, but people took it seriously in 2017. After that it was supposed to be the eTron, the new Leaf, the EQC, Taycan, ID3 etc etc. Ford is physically incapable of making more than 50k MachE-s this year, meanwhile Tesla makes 220K 3+Y per quarter.
- thinkmassive 5y ago
  FSD is widely available “If you have not already purchased FSD capability and your vehicle has FSD computer 3.0 or above, you can subscribe to FSD capability from the Tesla app or your Tesla Account.” https://www.tesla.com/support/full-self-driving-subscriptions https://www.tesla.com/support/full-self-driving-subscription...
  - TheDong 5y ago
    Tesla offers two things called FSD: first, there's the "FSD Beta" which can navigate on city streets (with careful supervision). Second is FSD, which is the list of features here: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot Effectively, that second FSD gives you a grab bag of features like "lane change" and "summon", but doesn't give you what people think of with FSD (navigate on city streets). You can still pay $10k to get FSD, but you only get the second thing by default. The first thing, what people think of as FSD, FSD beta, is limited to a small pool of beta testers. I would not call that widely available. The FSD that is comparable to super cruise is still in a beta, and it's just awful naming of things which lets that page you link say that anyone can buy FSD.
- tw04 5y ago
  >First, you mean Autopilot vs SuperCruise. FSD is only available to a few thousand people in a closed beta and it can do things (drive around a city, or parking lot) that SC cannot attempt (it is geofenced to highways) No, I don't mean autopilot, I mean FSD vs. SuperCruise on the highway. >Second, legacy OEMs have been releasing their "first EV" for 5 years now. The Bolt beat the Model 3 to market and was hailed (as all these were) as Tesla Killer. Sounds funny today, but people took it seriously in 2017. After that it was supposed to be the eTron, the new Leaf, the EQC, Taycan, ID3 etc etc. Ford is physically incapable of making more than 50k MachE-s this year, meanwhile Tesla makes 220K 3+Y per quarter. I don't follow your point. Tesla started 18 years ago, the major automakers started 5 years ago and are already producing comparable vehicles. Your argument is: they haven't switched the entirety of their production from ICE to Electric and that's somehow going to mean they won't be able to eventually surpass Tesla? I have faith that GM or Ford can ramp up production of EVs far, far faster than Tesla can figure out quality control and how to build an interior that's something other than spartan. When is the last time GM did something like just remove automatic passenger seat adjustment from a car without telling anyone? That's just busch league.
misiti3780 5y ago
Have you driven an electric made my GM?
- mikestew 5y ago
  Why do you ask? Because your comment sounds like it's setting up for an episode of Mr. Gotcha.
psadri 5y ago
Not sure if it will play out the same way but I remember the arrival of the iPhone. Lots of people defended Nokia and RIM (Blackberry) and a few years later they were completely decimated. I’d be curious why or why not it would play out the same way.
- underwater 5y ago
  Apple took a commodity item and built network effects (iMessage) and lock in (the app store is both a moat and a ball and chain keeping people inside the Apple ecosystem). Tesla don't have the equivalent.
  - TheSocialAndrew 5y ago
    The Tesla Superchargers network is the network effect.
    - underwater 5y ago
      How so? It becomes less valuable the more people who use it. And it doesn't work like a platform. That would be like Apple trying to build every possible app themselves.
      - TheSocialAndrew 5y ago
        You have the option to choose any of the other EV makers, but this one EV maker has very fast charging stations worldwide in strategic locations, with lounges and predictable charging rates. Of the 3 EVs that I drive, only the Tesla I would take outside the city. Even if the others had a much bigger range (they don't) I would not be comfortable outside of the Tesla supercharging network because I've encountered many difficulties with ChargePoint, evGO, etc: stations not working, backed up, slow charging, high cost, etc. The ecosystem is its charging network because it's very reliable and eliminates range anxiety.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      Government just passed $7.5 billion for charging network. There's probably more to come. SUperchargers are definitely an advantage, but how long until electric charging stations are everywhere?
rajup 5y ago
Having driven a Polestar 2 (by Volvo) and a tesla I have to agree. The Polestar was miles (heh) ahead in terms of build quality, interior and polish. The only reason I did not buy the Polestar outright is their still low range. I see that gap closing very quick in the next 3-5 years.
- la6471 5y ago
  You should drive Lucid Air
- lrem 5y ago
  That's hypothetical though. If I needed to replace my car with an electric today, the only game in town is Tesla and even that would be a painful slowdown for my semi-regular roadtrip (13h according to Google Maps + 2h40m of charging according to Tesla's trip planner). BTW: That trip planner is showing me some serious money savings on fuel... Ah, that's because they assume that charging costs $0/kWh and fuel costs $4/l ($15 per gallon).
  - brianwawok 5y ago
    Use ABRP, a better route planner. Free and has both better time and money estimates.
samstave 5y ago
What if instead of looking at company performance or stock value - we actually look at the VALUE That top execs in a company actually provide? What dept is that DIRECTOR of a company in charge of and how did they actually perform.... etc...
samstave 5y ago
>>>Tesla has proven that they were right betting on electric being the future. This should be the premise to literally take every single oil executive to task. --- I have a close family friend who is effectively an oil tycoon for shell oil. one of the worst companies on the planet. They shared over dinner at a really nice restauarant in Silicon Valley, pics of them hunting 'big game' in africa and the typical pics of 'here is the kill i had while on 'safari' in africa' yeah if you work in big oil, go fuck yourself.
- fourseventy 5y ago
  chill out dude
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  Thank god you and most people on HN and everywhere else are doing god’s work for their jobs while also helping make sure no one is homeless and given opportunities to work.
_ea1k 5y ago
> Hardly, Tesla has proven that they were right betting on electric being the future. SuperCruise by most accounts is ahead of "FSD" in real-world driving. GM has pivoted in less than 5 years to what it took Tesla 18 years to build. I let AP with Auto lane change run with confirmationless on during a busy time at night going around I-495 and it handled it flawlessly. Supercruise literally doesn't even have the features required to do that. This wasn't some beta, this is the thing that's been shipping for a few years now. Supercruise has one little trick of letting you be handsfree, but that is its only advantage.
csmeder 5y ago
Bookmarking for Nov 2026 — my prediction: GM and Ford go the same way as Volvo (sold to another manufacture) or have gone bankrupt and sold just for the name.

by tw04 5y ago

andreilys 5y ago

SuperCruise by most accounts is ahead of "FSD" in real-world driving. Source? SuperCruise is geofenced to highways, so it can't even drive in areas that FSD can so I'm not sure this is the right comparison.

mellavora 5y ago
what areas can FSD drive in?
- leesec 5y ago
  I don't even have the FSD beta but my autopilot can turn on anywhere there's lane lines basically.
- beambot 5y ago
  Apples don't have orange skin.
ajross 5y ago
Yeah, this is a meme that circulates in the $TSLAQ world, often appearing alongside shrieks of "Panel Gaps!". There really isn't a source, Super Cruise just isn't very available in public yet (just a tiny handful of cars have it, with probably less than 20k users). The core of the point is generally that Tesla AP is deployed as a hands-on solution, requiring regular steering wheel input (just twisting the wheel a bit), where GM ships this in cars with cameras pointed at the driver (Tesla has them too now, though the wheel nags still exist) that take the entire monitoring load. That makes it "hands free", and therefore better. This is often combined with a conflation of "hands free" with SAE L3 Autonomy (which isn't correct) to try to emphasize the point, skipping the fact that the hands-free areas are limited just just a few hand-vetted highways. All Tesla would need to do to compete with that feature would be to implement the same geofencing, basically. But that's not where they're aiming. I mean, in the real world, AP is pretty amazing and SC is mostly vaporware. My car took me 429 miles last Thursday and the only input required beyond wheel nags was some editorial differences I had with it about proper lane selection (and even then, I was only right about 60% of the time).

reacharavindh 5y ago

It’s never a single winner in the market. Sure, Tesla may be superior in some regards(battery tech, better motors) that are critical to an EV, but other car makers bring something else to the table while being reasonably close on range. I for one don’t like the Tesla “All in a single touch screen” interface. Neither do I want my car to constantly update its firmware automatically(chasing a wild auto driving fantasy and SV dreams). I just want my car as an effective tool and be open. I’d love to use CarPlay like on other cars… Tesla? Not to say that other car makers are perfect. Competition is always good for the consumer.

AlexandrB 5y ago
> I’d love to use CarPlay like on other cars… Tesla? Wow, I didn't know Tesla didn't support CarPlay. That + Android Auto seems like table stakes in a 2021 luxury (or even mid-range) sedan.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  It would be worse than built in nav. No super charger knowledge.
  - reacharavindh 5y ago
    Nothing wrong with having their kid-ass nav system with supercharger routing. Why not _also_ develop CarPlay and Android Auto apps for it and let users use CarPlay and Android Auto like other car manufacturers?
    - brianwawok 5y ago
      Other car makers don't already have a functional UI. I have used all three, and much prefer the tesla UI.

martythemaniak 5y ago

First, you mean Autopilot vs SuperCruise. FSD is only available to a few thousand people in a closed beta and it can do things (drive around a city, or parking lot) that SC cannot attempt (it is geofenced to highways) Second, legacy OEMs have been releasing their "first EV" for 5 years now. The Bolt beat the Model 3 to market and was hailed (as all these were) as Tesla Killer. Sounds funny today, but people took it seriously in 2017. After that it was supposed to be the eTron, the new Leaf, the EQC, Taycan, ID3 etc etc. Ford is physically incapable of making more than 50k MachE-s this year, meanwhile Tesla makes 220K 3+Y per quarter.

thinkmassive 5y ago
FSD is widely available “If you have not already purchased FSD capability and your vehicle has FSD computer 3.0 or above, you can subscribe to FSD capability from the Tesla app or your Tesla Account.” https://www.tesla.com/support/full-self-driving-subscriptions https://www.tesla.com/support/full-self-driving-subscription...
- TheDong 5y ago
  Tesla offers two things called FSD: first, there's the "FSD Beta" which can navigate on city streets (with careful supervision). Second is FSD, which is the list of features here: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot Effectively, that second FSD gives you a grab bag of features like "lane change" and "summon", but doesn't give you what people think of with FSD (navigate on city streets). You can still pay $10k to get FSD, but you only get the second thing by default. The first thing, what people think of as FSD, FSD beta, is limited to a small pool of beta testers. I would not call that widely available. The FSD that is comparable to super cruise is still in a beta, and it's just awful naming of things which lets that page you link say that anyone can buy FSD.
tw04 5y ago
>First, you mean Autopilot vs SuperCruise. FSD is only available to a few thousand people in a closed beta and it can do things (drive around a city, or parking lot) that SC cannot attempt (it is geofenced to highways) No, I don't mean autopilot, I mean FSD vs. SuperCruise on the highway. >Second, legacy OEMs have been releasing their "first EV" for 5 years now. The Bolt beat the Model 3 to market and was hailed (as all these were) as Tesla Killer. Sounds funny today, but people took it seriously in 2017. After that it was supposed to be the eTron, the new Leaf, the EQC, Taycan, ID3 etc etc. Ford is physically incapable of making more than 50k MachE-s this year, meanwhile Tesla makes 220K 3+Y per quarter. I don't follow your point. Tesla started 18 years ago, the major automakers started 5 years ago and are already producing comparable vehicles. Your argument is: they haven't switched the entirety of their production from ICE to Electric and that's somehow going to mean they won't be able to eventually surpass Tesla? I have faith that GM or Ford can ramp up production of EVs far, far faster than Tesla can figure out quality control and how to build an interior that's something other than spartan. When is the last time GM did something like just remove automatic passenger seat adjustment from a car without telling anyone? That's just busch league.

misiti3780 5y ago

Have you driven an electric made my GM?

mikestew 5y ago
Why do you ask? Because your comment sounds like it's setting up for an episode of Mr. Gotcha.

psadri 5y ago

Not sure if it will play out the same way but I remember the arrival of the iPhone. Lots of people defended Nokia and RIM (Blackberry) and a few years later they were completely decimated. I’d be curious why or why not it would play out the same way.

underwater 5y ago
Apple took a commodity item and built network effects (iMessage) and lock in (the app store is both a moat and a ball and chain keeping people inside the Apple ecosystem). Tesla don't have the equivalent.
- TheSocialAndrew 5y ago
  The Tesla Superchargers network is the network effect.
  - underwater 5y ago
    How so? It becomes less valuable the more people who use it. And it doesn't work like a platform. That would be like Apple trying to build every possible app themselves.
    - TheSocialAndrew 5y ago
      You have the option to choose any of the other EV makers, but this one EV maker has very fast charging stations worldwide in strategic locations, with lounges and predictable charging rates. Of the 3 EVs that I drive, only the Tesla I would take outside the city. Even if the others had a much bigger range (they don't) I would not be comfortable outside of the Tesla supercharging network because I've encountered many difficulties with ChargePoint, evGO, etc: stations not working, backed up, slow charging, high cost, etc. The ecosystem is its charging network because it's very reliable and eliminates range anxiety.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Government just passed $7.5 billion for charging network. There's probably more to come. SUperchargers are definitely an advantage, but how long until electric charging stations are everywhere?

rajup 5y ago

Having driven a Polestar 2 (by Volvo) and a tesla I have to agree. The Polestar was miles (heh) ahead in terms of build quality, interior and polish. The only reason I did not buy the Polestar outright is their still low range. I see that gap closing very quick in the next 3-5 years.

la6471 5y ago
You should drive Lucid Air
lrem 5y ago
That's hypothetical though. If I needed to replace my car with an electric today, the only game in town is Tesla and even that would be a painful slowdown for my semi-regular roadtrip (13h according to Google Maps + 2h40m of charging according to Tesla's trip planner). BTW: That trip planner is showing me some serious money savings on fuel... Ah, that's because they assume that charging costs $0/kWh and fuel costs $4/l ($15 per gallon).
- brianwawok 5y ago
  Use ABRP, a better route planner. Free and has both better time and money estimates.

samstave 5y ago

What if instead of looking at company performance or stock value - we actually look at the VALUE That top execs in a company actually provide? What dept is that DIRECTOR of a company in charge of and how did they actually perform.... etc...

samstave 5y ago

>>>Tesla has proven that they were right betting on electric being the future. This should be the premise to literally take every single oil executive to task. --- I have a close family friend who is effectively an oil tycoon for shell oil. one of the worst companies on the planet. They shared over dinner at a really nice restauarant in Silicon Valley, pics of them hunting 'big game' in africa and the typical pics of 'here is the kill i had while on 'safari' in africa' yeah if you work in big oil, go fuck yourself.

fourseventy 5y ago
chill out dude
skinnymuch 5y ago
Thank god you and most people on HN and everywhere else are doing god’s work for their jobs while also helping make sure no one is homeless and given opportunities to work.

_ea1k 5y ago

> Hardly, Tesla has proven that they were right betting on electric being the future. SuperCruise by most accounts is ahead of "FSD" in real-world driving. GM has pivoted in less than 5 years to what it took Tesla 18 years to build. I let AP with Auto lane change run with confirmationless on during a busy time at night going around I-495 and it handled it flawlessly. Supercruise literally doesn't even have the features required to do that. This wasn't some beta, this is the thing that's been shipping for a few years now. Supercruise has one little trick of letting you be handsfree, but that is its only advantage.

csmeder 5y ago

Bookmarking for Nov 2026 — my prediction: GM and Ford go the same way as Volvo (sold to another manufacture) or have gone bankrupt and sold just for the name.