5 ms·

I mean, I'd agree, but 2.8 Billion is a LOT of money. I'm impressed that the EU is willing to even hammer Google that hard. From what I can tell, Alphabet only

by badRNG 5y ago

I mean, I'd agree, but 2.8 Billion is a LOT of money. I'm impressed that the EU is willing to even hammer Google that hard. From what I can tell, Alphabet only ever has ~120 Billion USD on hand at any given point in time. While the fine seems to be doing better than mere pocket change, the fine must be more costly than the benefit of the anti-competitive behavior in order to be effective.

jjulius 5y ago
>... Alphabet only ever has ~120 Billion USD on hand at any given point in time. "Only".
- badRNG 5y ago
  I totally agree with your sentiment. It's sad that a 2.8 Billion USD fine should be considered a big win against a company, but in a regulatory environment where a 10 million USD fine often makes headlines (and is even more often overturned), 2.8B comes a lot closer to being meaningful than one would expect in our current situation.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  And with insanely aggressive share repurchases: > The company is aggressively buying back stock, having repurchased a record $12.8 billion in the second quarter, bringing the total so far in 2021 to $24.2 billion. > The company is on pace to buy back around $50 billion of stock this year. It’s a testament to Alphabet’s earnings power that its cash and equivalents were down less than $1 billion in the first half of the year to $135.9 billion despite the heavy repurchases. So they "only" have $120 Billion on hand while already spending $25 billion of their cash buying back stock and planning on spending another $25 billion this year. https://www.barrons.com/articles/alphabets-voting-shares-are-now-in-the-buyback-program-the-stock-is-surging-51627482792 https://www.barrons.com/articles/alphabets-voting-shares-are...
  - remram 5y ago
    Looks like the fine is an order of magnitude too low too hurt, at least.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> 2.8 Billion is a LOT of money > Alphabet only ever has ~120 Billion USD on hand at any given point in time To them, 2.8 billion USD is change. It's a tip for the government. Make it something like 70 billion and they might start caring. And if it looks like they aren't caring, fine them again until they do.
- adventured 5y ago
  If the EU fines Google $70 billion, which would obviously be an intentional assault on the US economy given the extraordinary scale, the only proper response would be for the US Government to attempt to destroy a major EU corporation in measured retaliation. Airbus is worth a bit more than $70 billion, they'd be an ideal and very easy target to sabotage. What you're suggesting is economic war.
  - DeathArrow 5y ago
    That's fine if Airbus does evil at the same scale as Google.
    - keewee7 5y ago
      Airbus is an international arms dealer.
    - adventured 5y ago
      Google isn't doing evil to warrant $70b fines. I reject your premise. A $70b fine would justify the excessive targeting of a major EU corporation in response. If the EU were to pretend that Google deserved an arbitrary $70b fine, then they could just as easily pretend US big tech broadly deserves several hundred billion USD in fines. It's pretty clear where that kind of insane behavior leads.
      - matheusmoreira 5y ago
        > Google isn't doing evil to warrant $70b fines. Proportionality doesn't work with companies that are disproportionally rich. The purpose of the fine is to get them to stop violating people's rights and it's clear that pitiful 2 billion dollar fines are not going to accomplish that objective. > It's pretty clear where that kind of insane behavior leads. It leads to Google no longer being a monopoly as well as being more respectful of people's privacy.
notyourwork 5y ago
> the fine must be more costly than the benefit of the anti-competitive behavior in order to be effective. That might be up for debate. According to Google Finance [1] Alphabet received income of $18.94B in September! So the fine is 15% of ONE quarter of their income. I don't think that is sufficient and qualifies to more like a slap on the wrist. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=alphabet+revenue https://www.google.com/search?q=alphabet+revenue edit: I should have said quarter, not month. Revised, sorry for the confusion.
- sam0x17 5y ago
  That said, someone's OKR in legal just got tanked haha
- badRNG 5y ago
  So, is the thought that the net benefit of Google's anti-competitive behavior related to comparison shopping services in Europe alone is greater than 1% of Alphabets total income over a calendar year?
  - claudiulodro 5y ago
    No, otherwise the fine would simply be a cost of doing business, and there would still be a positive ROI for Google on the behavior that got them in trouble. The fine needs to be greater than the revenue generated by anti-competitive behavior.
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      A truly fair punishment would require identifying when the unlawful behavior started, calculating all profits derived from it, taking it away and only then fining them. Making unlawful business decisions shouldn't be a calculated power move for them. It should put them in a worse position than they started. Like a chess game that gets rewound all the way back to the last legal move, but it costs them a rook or queen as well for the trouble they caused.
      - 5y ago

by badRNG 5y ago

jjulius 5y ago

>... Alphabet only ever has ~120 Billion USD on hand at any given point in time. "Only".

badRNG 5y ago
I totally agree with your sentiment. It's sad that a 2.8 Billion USD fine should be considered a big win against a company, but in a regulatory environment where a 10 million USD fine often makes headlines (and is even more often overturned), 2.8B comes a lot closer to being meaningful than one would expect in our current situation.
mikeyouse 5y ago
And with insanely aggressive share repurchases: > The company is aggressively buying back stock, having repurchased a record $12.8 billion in the second quarter, bringing the total so far in 2021 to $24.2 billion. > The company is on pace to buy back around $50 billion of stock this year. It’s a testament to Alphabet’s earnings power that its cash and equivalents were down less than $1 billion in the first half of the year to $135.9 billion despite the heavy repurchases. So they "only" have $120 Billion on hand while already spending $25 billion of their cash buying back stock and planning on spending another $25 billion this year. https://www.barrons.com/articles/alphabets-voting-shares-are-now-in-the-buyback-program-the-stock-is-surging-51627482792 https://www.barrons.com/articles/alphabets-voting-shares-are...
- remram 5y ago
  Looks like the fine is an order of magnitude too low too hurt, at least.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

> 2.8 Billion is a LOT of money > Alphabet only ever has ~120 Billion USD on hand at any given point in time To them, 2.8 billion USD is change. It's a tip for the government. Make it something like 70 billion and they might start caring. And if it looks like they aren't caring, fine them again until they do.

adventured 5y ago
If the EU fines Google $70 billion, which would obviously be an intentional assault on the US economy given the extraordinary scale, the only proper response would be for the US Government to attempt to destroy a major EU corporation in measured retaliation. Airbus is worth a bit more than $70 billion, they'd be an ideal and very easy target to sabotage. What you're suggesting is economic war.
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  That's fine if Airbus does evil at the same scale as Google.
  - keewee7 5y ago
    Airbus is an international arms dealer.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Google isn't doing evil to warrant $70b fines. I reject your premise. A $70b fine would justify the excessive targeting of a major EU corporation in response. If the EU were to pretend that Google deserved an arbitrary $70b fine, then they could just as easily pretend US big tech broadly deserves several hundred billion USD in fines. It's pretty clear where that kind of insane behavior leads.
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      > Google isn't doing evil to warrant $70b fines. Proportionality doesn't work with companies that are disproportionally rich. The purpose of the fine is to get them to stop violating people's rights and it's clear that pitiful 2 billion dollar fines are not going to accomplish that objective. > It's pretty clear where that kind of insane behavior leads. It leads to Google no longer being a monopoly as well as being more respectful of people's privacy.

notyourwork 5y ago

> the fine must be more costly than the benefit of the anti-competitive behavior in order to be effective. That might be up for debate. According to Google Finance [1] Alphabet received income of $18.94B in September! So the fine is 15% of ONE quarter of their income. I don't think that is sufficient and qualifies to more like a slap on the wrist. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=alphabet+revenue https://www.google.com/search?q=alphabet+revenue edit: I should have said quarter, not month. Revised, sorry for the confusion.

sam0x17 5y ago
That said, someone's OKR in legal just got tanked haha
badRNG 5y ago
So, is the thought that the net benefit of Google's anti-competitive behavior related to comparison shopping services in Europe alone is greater than 1% of Alphabets total income over a calendar year?
- claudiulodro 5y ago
  No, otherwise the fine would simply be a cost of doing business, and there would still be a positive ROI for Google on the behavior that got them in trouble. The fine needs to be greater than the revenue generated by anti-competitive behavior.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    A truly fair punishment would require identifying when the unlawful behavior started, calculating all profits derived from it, taking it away and only then fining them. Making unlawful business decisions shouldn't be a calculated power move for them. It should put them in a worse position than they started. Like a chess game that gets rewound all the way back to the last legal move, but it costs them a rook or queen as well for the trouble they caused.
    - 5y ago