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> degrading the user experience for those of us who love “not being free” or whatever silly slogans people want to use. Speaking of silly slogans, how does my

> degrading the user experience for those of us who love “not being free” or whatever silly slogans people want to use. Speaking of silly slogans, how does my freedom to install an app on MY device degrade your experience?

ericmay 5y ago
Because it significantly harms the ability of Apple to collectively bargain on behalf of users. Again, all this talk about freedom but you’re the one insisting that two consenting parties change what they do because that’s what you want. You’re going to need a better argument than that. Why are you bothering Apple and I from a consensual and peaceful transaction? How are we harming you? What “freedom” is being taken away? I guess you believe you alone have the freedom to “buy an iPhone from Apple that allows 3rd party app stores”. But I don’t have the freedom to buy an iPhone from apple that doesn’t allow this? Or that Apple doesn’t have the freedom to sell the device they want to sell?
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  > to collectively bargain on behalf of users. You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage". Also, about 'two consenting parties'. Apple never tells their users that they will be unable to run the apps they NEED. They tell 'we remove malware and keep you safe'. When a user finds out that Apple removed an app run by opposition on request of the authoritarian government, it is too late to ask for a refund. I do not consent for this keeping me 'safe', but the vast majority of users do not know that they aren't free to use their devices as they want, running any app they need.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Then don’t buy an iPhone. Problem solved. Clearly it’s not the product for you. Use your freedom to buy an Android phone. There are dozens of options. > You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage No, I wrote what I wanted to write.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Then you intentionally lied. Apple does not bargain of interests of their users. This is proven by a single fact that you are forbidden to run Signal in China, or Navalny voting app in Russia.
      - quesera 5y ago
        Explain please how you would go about flagrantly violating the laws of China or Russia without going to jail, or worse. Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best. Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide. Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        > Should Apple leave China? No. The solution is very simple. Apple should simply allow users to install apps at will, sidestepping the AppStore. China tells to remove Signal from the AppStore? Whatever, Apple complies and users download it directly from Signal, sidestepping the great firewall via VPN or something. This problem in its entirety was created by Apple's malicious desire to control what users can run on their devices. Consequently, this gives bad actors big leverage over Apple, which is forced to serve not only its greedy needs, but also the needs of those bad actors.
        quesera 5y ago
        And this is why Signal on Android is so popular in China? Problem solved?
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        No. This does not solve the problem of iPhone users. Btw, how would you feel if you wouldn't be allowed to run any app you want on your MacBook? Apple rolls out new macOS 16, says, " For your own safety, AppStore is now mandatory".
matwood 5y ago
Because as soon as a company like FB[1] can move outside the App Store, they will in order to bypass privacy policies. This impacts everyone who wants to use the FB app. Of course that control is not always good, but it's also not always bad. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterprise_certificate_revocation/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  Why didn't in happen on Android? FB can even run their own app store, but they still stay on Google Play. I think this simple fact invalidates your argument.
  - kklimonda 5y ago
    Wasn't this the case with Fortnite, which originally was available only as a side loaded app, and now you need a separate store app to install it? Or am I misremembering it?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Yes, and what? Did anyone suffer because of it?

ericmay 5y ago

Because it significantly harms the ability of Apple to collectively bargain on behalf of users. Again, all this talk about freedom but you’re the one insisting that two consenting parties change what they do because that’s what you want. You’re going to need a better argument than that. Why are you bothering Apple and I from a consensual and peaceful transaction? How are we harming you? What “freedom” is being taken away? I guess you believe you alone have the freedom to “buy an iPhone from Apple that allows 3rd party app stores”. But I don’t have the freedom to buy an iPhone from apple that doesn’t allow this? Or that Apple doesn’t have the freedom to sell the device they want to sell?

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> to collectively bargain on behalf of users. You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage". Also, about 'two consenting parties'. Apple never tells their users that they will be unable to run the apps they NEED. They tell 'we remove malware and keep you safe'. When a user finds out that Apple removed an app run by opposition on request of the authoritarian government, it is too late to ask for a refund. I do not consent for this keeping me 'safe', but the vast majority of users do not know that they aren't free to use their devices as they want, running any app they need.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Then don’t buy an iPhone. Problem solved. Clearly it’s not the product for you. Use your freedom to buy an Android phone. There are dozens of options. > You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage No, I wrote what I wanted to write.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Then you intentionally lied. Apple does not bargain of interests of their users. This is proven by a single fact that you are forbidden to run Signal in China, or Navalny voting app in Russia.
    - quesera 5y ago
      Explain please how you would go about flagrantly violating the laws of China or Russia without going to jail, or worse. Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best. Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide. Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        > Should Apple leave China? No. The solution is very simple. Apple should simply allow users to install apps at will, sidestepping the AppStore. China tells to remove Signal from the AppStore? Whatever, Apple complies and users download it directly from Signal, sidestepping the great firewall via VPN or something. This problem in its entirety was created by Apple's malicious desire to control what users can run on their devices. Consequently, this gives bad actors big leverage over Apple, which is forced to serve not only its greedy needs, but also the needs of those bad actors.
        quesera 5y ago
        And this is why Signal on Android is so popular in China? Problem solved?
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        No. This does not solve the problem of iPhone users. Btw, how would you feel if you wouldn't be allowed to run any app you want on your MacBook? Apple rolls out new macOS 16, says, " For your own safety, AppStore is now mandatory".

matwood 5y ago

Because as soon as a company like FB[1] can move outside the App Store, they will in order to bypass privacy policies. This impacts everyone who wants to use the FB app. Of course that control is not always good, but it's also not always bad. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterprise_certificate_revocation/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Why didn't in happen on Android? FB can even run their own app store, but they still stay on Google Play. I think this simple fact invalidates your argument.
- kklimonda 5y ago
  Wasn't this the case with Fortnite, which originally was available only as a side loaded app, and now you need a separate store app to install it? Or am I misremembering it?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Yes, and what? Did anyone suffer because of it?