6 ms·

You may love not having freedom to run whatever the app you please. But why are you fine with everyone else not having this freedom? There are people living in

You may love not having freedom to run whatever the app you please. But why are you fine with everyone else not having this freedom? There are people living in actual dictatorship countries who can't access the information vital to them, because Apple and Google happily do business with brutal dictators?

ericmay 5y ago
This has been beaten to death, but at least for Apple it means degrading the user experience for those of us who love “not being free” or whatever silly slogans people want to use. Why can’t I have the “freedom” to buy an iPhone just how it is today? Why are you supporting courts infringing on a peaceful transaction between two entities? If you want to do the whole screening from the rooftop about rights thing then you’re going to have to respect the rights of others too, not just what you want. With the App Store mechanic Apple can collectively bargain on behalf of users. Do you think companies would allow anonymous signin on a third party App Store? Or post how they collect and use your data? Of course not. Apple makes that happen. If you want to use more than one App Store just buy an Android phone and get on with your day. If the Apple model of a single store is truly the inferior model Apple will be forced by market mechanics to allow others.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  > degrading the user experience for those of us who love “not being free” or whatever silly slogans people want to use. Speaking of silly slogans, how does my freedom to install an app on MY device degrade your experience?
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Because it significantly harms the ability of Apple to collectively bargain on behalf of users. Again, all this talk about freedom but you’re the one insisting that two consenting parties change what they do because that’s what you want. You’re going to need a better argument than that. Why are you bothering Apple and I from a consensual and peaceful transaction? How are we harming you? What “freedom” is being taken away? I guess you believe you alone have the freedom to “buy an iPhone from Apple that allows 3rd party app stores”. But I don’t have the freedom to buy an iPhone from apple that doesn’t allow this? Or that Apple doesn’t have the freedom to sell the device they want to sell?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      > to collectively bargain on behalf of users. You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage". Also, about 'two consenting parties'. Apple never tells their users that they will be unable to run the apps they NEED. They tell 'we remove malware and keep you safe'. When a user finds out that Apple removed an app run by opposition on request of the authoritarian government, it is too late to ask for a refund. I do not consent for this keeping me 'safe', but the vast majority of users do not know that they aren't free to use their devices as they want, running any app they need.
      - ericmay 5y ago
        Then don’t buy an iPhone. Problem solved. Clearly it’s not the product for you. Use your freedom to buy an Android phone. There are dozens of options. > You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage No, I wrote what I wanted to write.
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        Then you intentionally lied. Apple does not bargain of interests of their users. This is proven by a single fact that you are forbidden to run Signal in China, or Navalny voting app in Russia.
        quesera 5y ago
        Explain please how you would go about flagrantly violating the laws of China or Russia without going to jail, or worse. Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best. Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide. Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  - matwood 5y ago
    Because as soon as a company like FB[1] can move outside the App Store, they will in order to bypass privacy policies. This impacts everyone who wants to use the FB app. Of course that control is not always good, but it's also not always bad. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterprise_certificate_revocation/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Why didn't in happen on Android? FB can even run their own app store, but they still stay on Google Play. I think this simple fact invalidates your argument.
      - kklimonda 5y ago
        Wasn't this the case with Fortnite, which originally was available only as a side loaded app, and now you need a separate store app to install it? Or am I misremembering it?
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        Yes, and what? Did anyone suffer because of it?
- dismalpedigree 5y ago
  How about they make it opt-in? Default to walled garden of today. Give people an option to breath the clean air outside the castle gates if they choose. THATS Freedom.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Why not just buy an Android phone with the features you want? That’s what I don’t get here. Like if I wanted to repair my phone for example I’d buy a phone with that as a feature. If I wanted to “install anything I want” I’d buy a phone with that feature or capability. If you just don’t buy an iPhone then maybe market forces will cause Ape to add this (to your eyes) feature.
    - schwartzworld 5y ago
      > Why not just buy an Android phone with the features you want? That's exactly what I did, but I know several iPhone users who don't feel comfortable making the switch despite being unhappy with Apple's policies. It's a big deal to change ecosystems for people who are heavy mobile users. It might mean getting new accessories, learning new apps (or not having a direct replacement for an app), and losing several other benefits of being in a single ecosystem. It's ridiculous to say that customers should shut up and take their business elsewhere. If current users don't speak up about Apple's consumer/developer-hostile behavior, who will?
      - ericmay 5y ago
        I don't think it's consumer hostile. It's consumer positive. I don't want multiple app stores. I want Apple's heavy-handed approach. I want Apple to make developers who are trying to screw over people fess up to their anti-consumer activities. If Apple changes as you want it, then now I'm unhappy with Apple's policies. It's a big deal for me to change ecosystems as a heavy mobile user. I might have to get new accessories or learn new apps, or lose several other benefits of being in the Apple ecosystem. > developer-hostile It's the developers who are mostly hostile TBH. That's why they're railing against things like Apple enforcing data permissions or making developers at least nominally fess up to how they are fucking you and stealing your data. Developers aren't some magical good "guy/gal" to be put on a pedestal.
2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
>You may love not having freedom to run whatever the app you please. But why are you fine with everyone else not having this freedom? What!? Because someone buys an Apple phone they don’t want anyone else to be able to choose their own phone? I use an iPhone and I fully support you making your own choices. I hope you used your choice to vote with your wallet and buy a pine phone or a librem.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  Someone buys an iPhone and uses it, and then suddenly discovers that Apple forbids him using the app. Money are already paid to Apple, who then acted against user interests. I can't even fathom what's in brains of people who are fine with that!
  - Angostura 5y ago
    Do you have examples of Apple 'forbidding' the user from using an app that they have previously purchased?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Of course. Any app that is blocked in app store is uninstallable on any of your devices. On a new one or after reset. It won't go away from your phone if already installed, but Apple sure has this ability.

ericmay 5y ago

This has been beaten to death, but at least for Apple it means degrading the user experience for those of us who love “not being free” or whatever silly slogans people want to use. Why can’t I have the “freedom” to buy an iPhone just how it is today? Why are you supporting courts infringing on a peaceful transaction between two entities? If you want to do the whole screening from the rooftop about rights thing then you’re going to have to respect the rights of others too, not just what you want. With the App Store mechanic Apple can collectively bargain on behalf of users. Do you think companies would allow anonymous signin on a third party App Store? Or post how they collect and use your data? Of course not. Apple makes that happen. If you want to use more than one App Store just buy an Android phone and get on with your day. If the Apple model of a single store is truly the inferior model Apple will be forced by market mechanics to allow others.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> degrading the user experience for those of us who love “not being free” or whatever silly slogans people want to use. Speaking of silly slogans, how does my freedom to install an app on MY device degrade your experience?
- ericmay 5y ago
  Because it significantly harms the ability of Apple to collectively bargain on behalf of users. Again, all this talk about freedom but you’re the one insisting that two consenting parties change what they do because that’s what you want. You’re going to need a better argument than that. Why are you bothering Apple and I from a consensual and peaceful transaction? How are we harming you? What “freedom” is being taken away? I guess you believe you alone have the freedom to “buy an iPhone from Apple that allows 3rd party app stores”. But I don’t have the freedom to buy an iPhone from apple that doesn’t allow this? Or that Apple doesn’t have the freedom to sell the device they want to sell?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    > to collectively bargain on behalf of users. You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage". Also, about 'two consenting parties'. Apple never tells their users that they will be unable to run the apps they NEED. They tell 'we remove malware and keep you safe'. When a user finds out that Apple removed an app run by opposition on request of the authoritarian government, it is too late to ask for a refund. I do not consent for this keeping me 'safe', but the vast majority of users do not know that they aren't free to use their devices as they want, running any app they need.
    - ericmay 5y ago
      Then don’t buy an iPhone. Problem solved. Clearly it’s not the product for you. Use your freedom to buy an Android phone. There are dozens of options. > You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage No, I wrote what I wanted to write.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        Then you intentionally lied. Apple does not bargain of interests of their users. This is proven by a single fact that you are forbidden to run Signal in China, or Navalny voting app in Russia.
        quesera 5y ago
        Explain please how you would go about flagrantly violating the laws of China or Russia without going to jail, or worse. Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best. Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide. Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
- matwood 5y ago
  Because as soon as a company like FB[1] can move outside the App Store, they will in order to bypass privacy policies. This impacts everyone who wants to use the FB app. Of course that control is not always good, but it's also not always bad. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterprise_certificate_revocation/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Why didn't in happen on Android? FB can even run their own app store, but they still stay on Google Play. I think this simple fact invalidates your argument.
    - kklimonda 5y ago
      Wasn't this the case with Fortnite, which originally was available only as a side loaded app, and now you need a separate store app to install it? Or am I misremembering it?
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        Yes, and what? Did anyone suffer because of it?
dismalpedigree 5y ago
How about they make it opt-in? Default to walled garden of today. Give people an option to breath the clean air outside the castle gates if they choose. THATS Freedom.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Why not just buy an Android phone with the features you want? That’s what I don’t get here. Like if I wanted to repair my phone for example I’d buy a phone with that as a feature. If I wanted to “install anything I want” I’d buy a phone with that feature or capability. If you just don’t buy an iPhone then maybe market forces will cause Ape to add this (to your eyes) feature.
  - schwartzworld 5y ago
    > Why not just buy an Android phone with the features you want? That's exactly what I did, but I know several iPhone users who don't feel comfortable making the switch despite being unhappy with Apple's policies. It's a big deal to change ecosystems for people who are heavy mobile users. It might mean getting new accessories, learning new apps (or not having a direct replacement for an app), and losing several other benefits of being in a single ecosystem. It's ridiculous to say that customers should shut up and take their business elsewhere. If current users don't speak up about Apple's consumer/developer-hostile behavior, who will?
    - ericmay 5y ago
      I don't think it's consumer hostile. It's consumer positive. I don't want multiple app stores. I want Apple's heavy-handed approach. I want Apple to make developers who are trying to screw over people fess up to their anti-consumer activities. If Apple changes as you want it, then now I'm unhappy with Apple's policies. It's a big deal for me to change ecosystems as a heavy mobile user. I might have to get new accessories or learn new apps, or lose several other benefits of being in the Apple ecosystem. > developer-hostile It's the developers who are mostly hostile TBH. That's why they're railing against things like Apple enforcing data permissions or making developers at least nominally fess up to how they are fucking you and stealing your data. Developers aren't some magical good "guy/gal" to be put on a pedestal.

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago

>You may love not having freedom to run whatever the app you please. But why are you fine with everyone else not having this freedom? What!? Because someone buys an Apple phone they don’t want anyone else to be able to choose their own phone? I use an iPhone and I fully support you making your own choices. I hope you used your choice to vote with your wallet and buy a pine phone or a librem.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Someone buys an iPhone and uses it, and then suddenly discovers that Apple forbids him using the app. Money are already paid to Apple, who then acted against user interests. I can't even fathom what's in brains of people who are fine with that!
- Angostura 5y ago
  Do you have examples of Apple 'forbidding' the user from using an app that they have previously purchased?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Of course. Any app that is blocked in app store is uninstallable on any of your devices. On a new one or after reset. It won't go away from your phone if already installed, but Apple sure has this ability.