5 ms·

Censorship is horrible and would in fact be the end of democracy.

by wsc981 5y ago

Fricken 5y ago
You can't have a functioning democracy without an informed populace. Censorship and disinformation are 2 sides of the same coin.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Was it misinformation that let you support the war in Iraq? What was the source of the information?
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    People, corporations and, most important of all, government officials should be held liable for the consequences of any misrepresentation made to the public. In fact, the only excuse for a government official to present materially false information is national security, and, even then, they can usually do the "I cannot confirm or deny" or "I have no recollection of" dance. What we have is large organizations that profit from misinforming a large population. This endangers democracy and the very fabric of our societies. The freedom of the press comes from the requirement of an informed population for the functioning of a democracy. When the organization ceases to inform, it should not enjoy the legal protections afforded to the press.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      They should be hold accountable, but that did not happen and can only happen if government is strictly prohibited to influence content, even if it is misinformation. This is why the constitution of the US is pretty good despite its age (I am not from the US). But true, maybe it didn't foresaw companies becoming so influential that they rival states. But the solutions I heard was forcing these companies to moderate content, an approach that is so obviously flawed that I cannot believe how many supporters the idea can mobilize. Still, government misinformation is still a threat. The Russian interference story was a pretty big scandal in my opinion because it was mostly made up and worse media and intelligence agencies corroborated on direct lie. Exactly like they did on Iraq. This has Operation Mockingbird quality at least and people responsible didn't face any repercussions. Frankly, the only people that would let them face consequences are the allegedly stupid flyover rednecks. But if these people really are stupid, what do I call the others? Is there a geopolitical tension with Russia or Putin? Sure. Would Putin try to get people in the US to fight each other? Of course! But I doubt he would have needed to do much to be honest, not because of a lack of trying.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        > Exactly like they did on Iraq. That was very shocking, because it eroded public good will towards the US, making it obvious the government would use whatever falsehoods to justify an illegal war despite the fact international experts on the ground were clearly stating the opposite. That and using its privileged position in the UN Security Council to avoid any repercussions, effectively nullifying the organization and showing it has no teeth against the US. The Russia thing has some interesting facets however. Did Putin actually plan on Trump being elected? I very much doubt so - nobody in their right mind would expect that. Was he pleased? I bet he was. We know Russia has been financing disinformation campaigns in Europe to destabilize the EU, and the far-right has embraced that as a convenient way to reach power. The damage that caused to US politics will take decades to repair, and even if it can heal itself is debatable at this point.
- wsc981 5y ago
  But you can't even trust the government or media to provide honest information most of the time. What you need is a critical press, which in my opinion is mostly gone in my country of origin (The Netherlands), probably many more countries in the Western world. Some examples from US that show the press not operating in a honest way would be the Trump "Russia gate" debacle and the "horse dewormer" coverage of Ivermectin.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > What you need is a critical press What we need is a press that's dedicated to present the truth. Think of it as something similar to the BBC, but fully independent and impossible to influence without getting exposed.
    - impendingchange 5y ago
      What if press organizations were not allowed to be for-profit?
jay_kyburz 5y ago
We have censorship everywhere you look. There is no porn on Facebook, not many links to illegal stuff in Google. I've been thinking about it all day, and perhaps it is OK if half the world is walking around thinking the earth is flat. Perhaps it doesn't really matter if our leaders don't believe in science. Does it really matter that 700,000 people died of covid unnecessarily? But does it really matter if your speech is censored if nobody believes what you say anyhow? just another mad voice in a sea of madness? But assuming the whole point of society is to try an improve the lives of people living in it, I think we need a foundation of trust, and we should do out best to suppress things that undermined that trust. Trust in our officials, Trust in our media, Trust in each other.

Censorship is horrible and would in fact be the end of democracy.

by wsc981 5y ago

Censorship is horrible and would in fact be the end of democracy.

You can't have a functioning democracy without an informed populace. Censorship and disinformation are 2 sides of the same coin.

raxxorrax 5y ago
Was it misinformation that let you support the war in Iraq? What was the source of the information?
- rbanffy 5y ago
  People, corporations and, most important of all, government officials should be held liable for the consequences of any misrepresentation made to the public. In fact, the only excuse for a government official to present materially false information is national security, and, even then, they can usually do the "I cannot confirm or deny" or "I have no recollection of" dance. What we have is large organizations that profit from misinforming a large population. This endangers democracy and the very fabric of our societies. The freedom of the press comes from the requirement of an informed population for the functioning of a democracy. When the organization ceases to inform, it should not enjoy the legal protections afforded to the press.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    They should be hold accountable, but that did not happen and can only happen if government is strictly prohibited to influence content, even if it is misinformation. This is why the constitution of the US is pretty good despite its age (I am not from the US). But true, maybe it didn't foresaw companies becoming so influential that they rival states. But the solutions I heard was forcing these companies to moderate content, an approach that is so obviously flawed that I cannot believe how many supporters the idea can mobilize. Still, government misinformation is still a threat. The Russian interference story was a pretty big scandal in my opinion because it was mostly made up and worse media and intelligence agencies corroborated on direct lie. Exactly like they did on Iraq. This has Operation Mockingbird quality at least and people responsible didn't face any repercussions. Frankly, the only people that would let them face consequences are the allegedly stupid flyover rednecks. But if these people really are stupid, what do I call the others? Is there a geopolitical tension with Russia or Putin? Sure. Would Putin try to get people in the US to fight each other? Of course! But I doubt he would have needed to do much to be honest, not because of a lack of trying.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > Exactly like they did on Iraq. That was very shocking, because it eroded public good will towards the US, making it obvious the government would use whatever falsehoods to justify an illegal war despite the fact international experts on the ground were clearly stating the opposite. That and using its privileged position in the UN Security Council to avoid any repercussions, effectively nullifying the organization and showing it has no teeth against the US. The Russia thing has some interesting facets however. Did Putin actually plan on Trump being elected? I very much doubt so - nobody in their right mind would expect that. Was he pleased? I bet he was. We know Russia has been financing disinformation campaigns in Europe to destabilize the EU, and the far-right has embraced that as a convenient way to reach power. The damage that caused to US politics will take decades to repair, and even if it can heal itself is debatable at this point.
wsc981 5y ago
But you can't even trust the government or media to provide honest information most of the time. What you need is a critical press, which in my opinion is mostly gone in my country of origin (The Netherlands), probably many more countries in the Western world. Some examples from US that show the press not operating in a honest way would be the Trump "Russia gate" debacle and the "horse dewormer" coverage of Ivermectin.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > What you need is a critical press What we need is a press that's dedicated to present the truth. Think of it as something similar to the BBC, but fully independent and impossible to influence without getting exposed.
  - impendingchange 5y ago
    What if press organizations were not allowed to be for-profit?

jay_kyburz 5y ago

We have censorship everywhere you look. There is no porn on Facebook, not many links to illegal stuff in Google. I've been thinking about it all day, and perhaps it is OK if half the world is walking around thinking the earth is flat. Perhaps it doesn't really matter if our leaders don't believe in science. Does it really matter that 700,000 people died of covid unnecessarily? But does it really matter if your speech is censored if nobody believes what you say anyhow? just another mad voice in a sea of madness? But assuming the whole point of society is to try an improve the lives of people living in it, I think we need a foundation of trust, and we should do out best to suppress things that undermined that trust. Trust in our officials, Trust in our media, Trust in each other.