7 ms·

Google Maps may silently be Alphabet's most powerful property. As someone who has spent the last 8 months religiously degoogling my life, I've found that Google

by yosito 5y ago

Google Maps may silently be Alphabet's most powerful property. As someone who has spent the last 8 months religiously degoogling my life, I've found that Google Maps features are incredibly hard to replace, while at the same time, giving Google direct abilities to influence behavior in the physical world. People see it as "just a map", but it's so much more. OSM-based map tools are pretty good as maps, but they utterly fail at being real-world information directories and functional tools for coordinating physical activities. I do have hope. It seems that there has been a lot of new enthusiasm for these tools lately, and some of them have key features in development. Two low hanging fruits: 1) location bookmarking features that can be synced between mobile/desktop with third party sync tools. 2) Link conversion features that can take Google Maps (or other map links) as input and open the location in OSM tools, and vice-versa. The real-world information directory is a much bigger challenge, but if the low hanging fruit features are developed enough that the average person could easily use open source / OSM tools for everything except a modern phone book, while still coordinating with peers who use Google Maps, then we'd have a much better foundation for tackling the issue.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
I think OSM is amazing. Way better at mapping than Google. When I hike I'm just walking in a green square in Google maps. OSM has every trail and hillslope etc. But what OSM lacks is real-time integration with public transport. If my bus is slow or redirected Google will tell me. I don't think this can be improved by the users. It really needs a data feed from the transport operators :'(
- KronisLV 5y ago
  I've found that overall, for public transport, HERE maps is a feasible alternative in most cases, here's a quick example of how a route might look (though there is a mobile app available as well, IMO the performance is much better than Google Maps'): https://wego.here.com/directions/publicTransport/Riga-International-Airport,-P133,-M%C4%81rupe,-1053:428ud15c-6ec73a7d31504213be85af5badf1f5af/Br%C4%ABv%C4%ABbas-gatve,-Riga,-LV-1006,-Latvia:56.98342,24.20300?map=56.95233,24.09137,13,grey https://wego.here.com/directions/publicTransport/Riga-Intern... Now, of course, Google probably still has more real time data in this regard, especially since it's possible for them to aggregate it due to a large amount of users and so on. It would be nice to have more FOSS projects pop up that would deal with providing company listings and reviews on the map like Google does, as well as would provide more real time transport information as well. But hey, at least OSM gives us a really good starting point, the rest is a matter of building it and getting the data!
  - commoner 5y ago
    HERE WeGo is a great alternative to Google Maps. It works on Android, iOS, and web. Business data is pulled from TripAdvisor. (The app store ratings for HERE WeGo are a bit low because they recently rewrote the app and the first few versions were unstable. The rewrite added lane guidance, which is a useful feature to have for driving directions.) - HERE WeGo (web): https://wego.here.com https://wego.here.com - HERE WeGo (Android): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.m... - HERE WeGo (iOS): https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-maps-navigation/id955837609 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-maps-navigation/id95... If the quality of the OSM data in your area is good, the best OSM-based apps are: - Organic Maps (FOSS, simple interface): https://organicmaps.app https://organicmaps.app - OsmAnd (FOSS, loaded with features): https://osmand.net https://osmand.net - Magic Earth (proprietary, uses a non-OSM data source for address locations): https://www.magicearth.com https://www.magicearth.com All 3 of these apps support both Android and iOS.
    - KronisLV 5y ago
      Thanks for the additional links, it's nice to have that many options!
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Watch out - it has Facebook malware in it. The app constantly pings Facebook in the background and includes device data (and potentially location data?).
      - commoner 5y ago
        Are you referring to HERE WeGo? I just did a network monitoring test run and I do see that it connects to 157.240.19.19 (Facebook) when the app is opened, but it doesn't seem to make any more connections after that. That is interesting and something I haven't noticed before. Thanks for mentioning it. Exodus says that HERE WeGo has 1 tracker (Facebook Login): - Exodus report for HERE WeGo: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.here.app.maps/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.here.ap... Organic Maps, OsmAnd, and Magic Earth have no trackers: - Exodus report for Organic Maps: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/app.omaps/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/app.omaps/l... - Exodus report for OsmAnd: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/net.osmand/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/net.osmand/... - Exodus report for Magic Earth: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.generalmagic.magicearth/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.general...
- yosito 5y ago
  Transportr is a decent Android app for getting public transport directions with OSM. https://f-droid.org/packages/de.grobox.liberario https://f-droid.org/packages/de.grobox.liberario Missing real-time service updates, but otherwise good.
- weeblewobble 5y ago
  In Seattle at least, Google Maps real time public transport support was way behind an app called OneBusAway which was built as a graduate project by students at the University of Washington (https://opentransitsoftwarefoundation.org/overview/history/ https://opentransitsoftwarefoundation.org/overview/history/) I had this app for at least a year before Google Maps released similar functionality. I still use it occasionally as the UX is better if you already know what bus stop you want to use.
m4rtink 5y ago
The data directory part of OSM is being improved by an interesting way: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete Basicaly a gamified editor that makes it easy and fun to fill in opening hours and onther important metadata while on the go. Frankly its almost addictive. :)
- mfru 5y ago
  Thank you for this! I try to use OSM as much as possible and this is perfect for me to contribute info on the go from now on.
- commoner 5y ago
  StreetComplete is a very user-friendly way to start contributing to OSM without needing to know anything about how OSM stores data. Looking up OSM keys/values for data entry can be tedious, and it's incredible how StreetComplete bypasses that completely. Most OSM editors work best on a large screen, but StreetComplete makes it quick and easy to contribute on mobile. Another great tool for contributing to OSM is MapWithAI. It uses computer vision to identify the shapes of buildings and roads in satellite imagery, so that you can add them to the map with one click. The AI assistance considerably speeds up the process of adding items to the map, saving you from drawing them by hand. MapWithAI is integrated with a fork of the online OSM editor (RapiD), which can also be used without learning about the technical details of OSM. If your area is missing a lot of buildings or roads in OSM, and you'd like to improve the maps, I encourage you to give it a try: https://mapwith.ai https://mapwith.ai
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Basicaly a gamified editor that makes it easy and fun to fill in opening hours and [other] important metadata while on the go. Frankly its almost addictive. :) When I read your description, I thought that maybe it was an app that prompted you to take a picture of the operating hours sign at a store when you visit, then sends the picture to a queue for someone to do the actual entry. The actual app is entirely different, but my idea might allow even more casual users, like me, to contribute. I don't have time to play an AR game like that, but I could easily snap a few pictures or answer some simple questions when I'm on the go.
simonh 5y ago
I’ve tried to switch to Apple maps a few times. Most recently was last weekend I used it for navigation directions. The problem this time was on Google maps your route in the display is annotated with small white arrows at the point where you turn off your current road on to a turning or slip road. On Apple maps you don’t get that, you just see a continuous blue curve with no visual indication where the turns are. Back to Google!
- dkdbejwi383 5y ago
  The problem with Apple Maps is that it's just monumentally stupid, for lack of a better term. I live in east London, and the other day I searched for directions to "Barbican", which is both a tube station and landmark in central London. My transport preference in the app is set to public transport. Apple Maps gave me driving directions to an island called "Barbican" in the middle of the sea somewhere.
  - ernesth 5y ago
    To be fair, Google Maps is also stupid: I once planned in advance and saved a trip with intermediary steps ending at what it calls "Domicile" (its way of saying Home in french). The next day I open the trip and the destination is no longer my home but a place doing home cleaning close to my start...
  - gambiting 5y ago
    It's beyond stupid. It does the same thing for me, I'm in the UK, I search for something and it gives me a location somewhere in the US.
  - runj__ 5y ago
    So, how was the island? I've experienced similar things, seems like one of the simpler problems to solve.
  - janekm 5y ago
    I just tried and it came up with Barbican centre and Barbican tube, might be worth updating to the latest version as there seem to have been a lot of improvement on the London map. Walking guidance also works better in Apple maps for me (especially with the watch). Still I also do find myself using Google Maps a lot of the time despite preferring the Apple one on privacy / design grounds.
hef19898 5y ago
I got rid of Google maps as well, the things I am missing are: 1) Search, Goolge maps is simply best in class here. Looking for whatever, Google maps finds the location or address 2) Route planning, either I am too stupid but most other solutions make it hard to chnage the starting point or add waypoints Have to agree, Google Maps for everyday navigation is just the best. Even if routing used to be better, IMHO.
- claudex 5y ago
  >2) Route planning, either I am too stupid but most other solutions make it hard to chnage the starting point or add waypoints OpenRouteService work great for that, but there is no traffic prevision/live information. https://maps.openrouteservice.org/#/ https://maps.openrouteservice.org/#/
amelius 5y ago
> Google Maps may silently be Alphabet's most powerful property. Except it's easy for a competitor to scrape Maps and build their own using OSM.
- y4mi 5y ago
  Except it's not. Apple has basically unlimited resources and tried. While it's a decent navigation option at this point, it continues to fall short wrt everything else if compared to Google maps.
  - amelius 5y ago
    If you have unlimited resources, you can try to contact all business owners and ask them if they would like a presence on Apple Maps. They didn't do that, so my conclusion is either they don't have unlimited resources or they simply didn't really try hard enough.
    - mpalmer 5y ago
      If Google Maps was little more than a glorified business directory, you might have a point. But nothing else comes close in terms of features and user experience, certainly not Apple Maps.
- blinding-streak 5y ago
  "Easy"
- yosito 5y ago
  You missed the entire point of my comment, which is that Google Maps is far more than a maps app, and until competitors realize that, they're bound to fail.
gambiting 5y ago
I think we'll have to have regulators step in at some point in another area - nowadays more and more cars are shipping with Android Automotive where Google Maps are the main(and only) map provider for the satnav. So no matter how you feel about Google - you have to use their product to operate the car fully.
- smt88 5y ago
  > Google Maps are the main(and only) map provider for the satnav Source? I've never heard of this. Maps has no relationship to the car's built-in navigation anyway. Every car I've used with Google Maps has both, but you have to pay a fee to use the built-in navigation app.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    As an example- new Volvos come with Android Automotive as the main OS, and the satnav is just Google Maps. There is no alternative built in. If you don't want google services then you have no satnav at all. Since the main instrument cluster also shows Google Maps if you disable it it just stays completely empty(only displaying basic information like speed and gear you're in). Source: I drove one. Second source: https://youtu.be/d8RJsXePE2M?t=28 https://youtu.be/d8RJsXePE2M?t=28
    - smt88 5y ago
      That's a car with "Android OS" -- it's not just some random car. Complaining about Google Maps on that car is like complaining about Google Maps on your Google Home screen. If you buy a car that is advertised as having Google software, you're going to get Google software.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Yes, but my point is that more and more cars are scheduled to have this as default. So going forward it will be harder and harder to escape the total and complete domination of Google Maps everywhere. That's why I said regulators will have to get involved at some point.

by yosito 5y ago

GekkePrutser 5y ago

I think OSM is amazing. Way better at mapping than Google. When I hike I'm just walking in a green square in Google maps. OSM has every trail and hillslope etc. But what OSM lacks is real-time integration with public transport. If my bus is slow or redirected Google will tell me. I don't think this can be improved by the users. It really needs a data feed from the transport operators :'(

KronisLV 5y ago
I've found that overall, for public transport, HERE maps is a feasible alternative in most cases, here's a quick example of how a route might look (though there is a mobile app available as well, IMO the performance is much better than Google Maps'): https://wego.here.com/directions/publicTransport/Riga-International-Airport,-P133,-M%C4%81rupe,-1053:428ud15c-6ec73a7d31504213be85af5badf1f5af/Br%C4%ABv%C4%ABbas-gatve,-Riga,-LV-1006,-Latvia:56.98342,24.20300?map=56.95233,24.09137,13,grey https://wego.here.com/directions/publicTransport/Riga-Intern... Now, of course, Google probably still has more real time data in this regard, especially since it's possible for them to aggregate it due to a large amount of users and so on. It would be nice to have more FOSS projects pop up that would deal with providing company listings and reviews on the map like Google does, as well as would provide more real time transport information as well. But hey, at least OSM gives us a really good starting point, the rest is a matter of building it and getting the data!
- commoner 5y ago
  HERE WeGo is a great alternative to Google Maps. It works on Android, iOS, and web. Business data is pulled from TripAdvisor. (The app store ratings for HERE WeGo are a bit low because they recently rewrote the app and the first few versions were unstable. The rewrite added lane guidance, which is a useful feature to have for driving directions.) - HERE WeGo (web): https://wego.here.com https://wego.here.com - HERE WeGo (Android): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.m... - HERE WeGo (iOS): https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-maps-navigation/id955837609 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-maps-navigation/id95... If the quality of the OSM data in your area is good, the best OSM-based apps are: - Organic Maps (FOSS, simple interface): https://organicmaps.app https://organicmaps.app - OsmAnd (FOSS, loaded with features): https://osmand.net https://osmand.net - Magic Earth (proprietary, uses a non-OSM data source for address locations): https://www.magicearth.com https://www.magicearth.com All 3 of these apps support both Android and iOS.
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    Thanks for the additional links, it's nice to have that many options!
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Watch out - it has Facebook malware in it. The app constantly pings Facebook in the background and includes device data (and potentially location data?).
    - commoner 5y ago
      Are you referring to HERE WeGo? I just did a network monitoring test run and I do see that it connects to 157.240.19.19 (Facebook) when the app is opened, but it doesn't seem to make any more connections after that. That is interesting and something I haven't noticed before. Thanks for mentioning it. Exodus says that HERE WeGo has 1 tracker (Facebook Login): - Exodus report for HERE WeGo: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.here.app.maps/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.here.ap... Organic Maps, OsmAnd, and Magic Earth have no trackers: - Exodus report for Organic Maps: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/app.omaps/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/app.omaps/l... - Exodus report for OsmAnd: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/net.osmand/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/net.osmand/... - Exodus report for Magic Earth: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.generalmagic.magicearth/latest/ https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.general...
yosito 5y ago
Transportr is a decent Android app for getting public transport directions with OSM. https://f-droid.org/packages/de.grobox.liberario https://f-droid.org/packages/de.grobox.liberario Missing real-time service updates, but otherwise good.
weeblewobble 5y ago
In Seattle at least, Google Maps real time public transport support was way behind an app called OneBusAway which was built as a graduate project by students at the University of Washington (https://opentransitsoftwarefoundation.org/overview/history/ https://opentransitsoftwarefoundation.org/overview/history/) I had this app for at least a year before Google Maps released similar functionality. I still use it occasionally as the UX is better if you already know what bus stop you want to use.

m4rtink 5y ago

The data directory part of OSM is being improved by an interesting way: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete Basicaly a gamified editor that makes it easy and fun to fill in opening hours and onther important metadata while on the go. Frankly its almost addictive. :)

mfru 5y ago
Thank you for this! I try to use OSM as much as possible and this is perfect for me to contribute info on the go from now on.
commoner 5y ago
StreetComplete is a very user-friendly way to start contributing to OSM without needing to know anything about how OSM stores data. Looking up OSM keys/values for data entry can be tedious, and it's incredible how StreetComplete bypasses that completely. Most OSM editors work best on a large screen, but StreetComplete makes it quick and easy to contribute on mobile. Another great tool for contributing to OSM is MapWithAI. It uses computer vision to identify the shapes of buildings and roads in satellite imagery, so that you can add them to the map with one click. The AI assistance considerably speeds up the process of adding items to the map, saving you from drawing them by hand. MapWithAI is integrated with a fork of the online OSM editor (RapiD), which can also be used without learning about the technical details of OSM. If your area is missing a lot of buildings or roads in OSM, and you'd like to improve the maps, I encourage you to give it a try: https://mapwith.ai https://mapwith.ai
tablespoon 5y ago
> Basicaly a gamified editor that makes it easy and fun to fill in opening hours and [other] important metadata while on the go. Frankly its almost addictive. :) When I read your description, I thought that maybe it was an app that prompted you to take a picture of the operating hours sign at a store when you visit, then sends the picture to a queue for someone to do the actual entry. The actual app is entirely different, but my idea might allow even more casual users, like me, to contribute. I don't have time to play an AR game like that, but I could easily snap a few pictures or answer some simple questions when I'm on the go.

simonh 5y ago

I’ve tried to switch to Apple maps a few times. Most recently was last weekend I used it for navigation directions. The problem this time was on Google maps your route in the display is annotated with small white arrows at the point where you turn off your current road on to a turning or slip road. On Apple maps you don’t get that, you just see a continuous blue curve with no visual indication where the turns are. Back to Google!

dkdbejwi383 5y ago
The problem with Apple Maps is that it's just monumentally stupid, for lack of a better term. I live in east London, and the other day I searched for directions to "Barbican", which is both a tube station and landmark in central London. My transport preference in the app is set to public transport. Apple Maps gave me driving directions to an island called "Barbican" in the middle of the sea somewhere.
- ernesth 5y ago
  To be fair, Google Maps is also stupid: I once planned in advance and saved a trip with intermediary steps ending at what it calls "Domicile" (its way of saying Home in french). The next day I open the trip and the destination is no longer my home but a place doing home cleaning close to my start...
- gambiting 5y ago
  It's beyond stupid. It does the same thing for me, I'm in the UK, I search for something and it gives me a location somewhere in the US.
- runj__ 5y ago
  So, how was the island? I've experienced similar things, seems like one of the simpler problems to solve.
- janekm 5y ago
  I just tried and it came up with Barbican centre and Barbican tube, might be worth updating to the latest version as there seem to have been a lot of improvement on the London map. Walking guidance also works better in Apple maps for me (especially with the watch). Still I also do find myself using Google Maps a lot of the time despite preferring the Apple one on privacy / design grounds.

hef19898 5y ago

I got rid of Google maps as well, the things I am missing are: 1) Search, Goolge maps is simply best in class here. Looking for whatever, Google maps finds the location or address 2) Route planning, either I am too stupid but most other solutions make it hard to chnage the starting point or add waypoints Have to agree, Google Maps for everyday navigation is just the best. Even if routing used to be better, IMHO.

claudex 5y ago
>2) Route planning, either I am too stupid but most other solutions make it hard to chnage the starting point or add waypoints OpenRouteService work great for that, but there is no traffic prevision/live information. https://maps.openrouteservice.org/#/ https://maps.openrouteservice.org/#/

amelius 5y ago

> Google Maps may silently be Alphabet's most powerful property. Except it's easy for a competitor to scrape Maps and build their own using OSM.

y4mi 5y ago
Except it's not. Apple has basically unlimited resources and tried. While it's a decent navigation option at this point, it continues to fall short wrt everything else if compared to Google maps.
- amelius 5y ago
  If you have unlimited resources, you can try to contact all business owners and ask them if they would like a presence on Apple Maps. They didn't do that, so my conclusion is either they don't have unlimited resources or they simply didn't really try hard enough.
  - mpalmer 5y ago
    If Google Maps was little more than a glorified business directory, you might have a point. But nothing else comes close in terms of features and user experience, certainly not Apple Maps.
blinding-streak 5y ago
"Easy"
yosito 5y ago
You missed the entire point of my comment, which is that Google Maps is far more than a maps app, and until competitors realize that, they're bound to fail.

gambiting 5y ago

I think we'll have to have regulators step in at some point in another area - nowadays more and more cars are shipping with Android Automotive where Google Maps are the main(and only) map provider for the satnav. So no matter how you feel about Google - you have to use their product to operate the car fully.

smt88 5y ago
> Google Maps are the main(and only) map provider for the satnav Source? I've never heard of this. Maps has no relationship to the car's built-in navigation anyway. Every car I've used with Google Maps has both, but you have to pay a fee to use the built-in navigation app.
- gambiting 5y ago
  As an example- new Volvos come with Android Automotive as the main OS, and the satnav is just Google Maps. There is no alternative built in. If you don't want google services then you have no satnav at all. Since the main instrument cluster also shows Google Maps if you disable it it just stays completely empty(only displaying basic information like speed and gear you're in). Source: I drove one. Second source: https://youtu.be/d8RJsXePE2M?t=28 https://youtu.be/d8RJsXePE2M?t=28
  - smt88 5y ago
    That's a car with "Android OS" -- it's not just some random car. Complaining about Google Maps on that car is like complaining about Google Maps on your Google Home screen. If you buy a car that is advertised as having Google software, you're going to get Google software.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Yes, but my point is that more and more cars are scheduled to have this as default. So going forward it will be harder and harder to escape the total and complete domination of Google Maps everywhere. That's why I said regulators will have to get involved at some point.