6 ms·

Wait until the US public finds out about the concept of a credit score (new in the 1980s).

mc32 5y ago
Credit score for ghee most part tries to assure lenders you can repay your debts. Social credit score is about how close you hew to proscribed behavior at large.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Credit scores are used as a proxy for Ideal Citizenship. It just so happens to have baked into it enough plausible deniability as to not run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. Turns out, a lot of "bad" actions result in missed bill payments.
  - mc32 5y ago
    In a semi anonymous society how else do you suppose one should determine the creditworthiness of someone? It used to be the merchant had to know you and you had to build up your credit with each merchant over time. Credit scoring made it easier for merchants and customers to issue and leverage we credit.
    - mywittyname 5y ago
      My comment might come off as an indictment of credit scores. But it really isn't. They absolutely solve the problem that you are pointing out. But they also serve to kind of solve a whole class of other problems around identifying behaviors that correlate with bad credit scores. For example, if you're a land lord who vehemently opposes divorce, it's possible to use a poor credit score as cover to deny renting to this middle-aged guy who is clearly just gone through one.
      - mc32 5y ago
        Sure but previous to credit scores what was the option? References from friends and business acquaintances? Sure credit scores aren’t perfect but they are better than the legacy alternative.
        salawat 5y ago
        ...Excuse me? Is there a way that could be better rephrased? What was the option for what? You're replying to a post about discriminating against a divorcee, but having the landlord hide it behind the justification of "bad credit". Not to be the missing antecedent police, but are you referring to by 'ther option' the pre-existing excuse to paper over arbitrary discrimination, or to practice of lending/renting in general? The answer is sadly important to the final assessment of meaning. I don't think you mean the former, but I figured I'd be daft and ask.
        mc32 5y ago
        I hear ya. A landlady could very well find out someone is an Antivaxxer who lost their good job and took a lesser job and now has degraded credit and may deny the lease or may want bigger advance. What do you suppose is a better tool you have or would build which hides this person’s history but can vouch for their creditworthiness or lack of it?
        salawat 5y ago
        >What do you suppose is a better tool you have or would build which hides this person’s history but can vouch for their creditworthiness or lack of it? I'm still lost on the part where we're stuck on having to be able to lookup a datastore managed by some private party in order to facilitate these arrangements? I have no interest in perpetuating the credit bureau system. If you're convinced that it's some priceless fixture we must have, then we can talk about setting up a public Bureau; with strict regulations around what type of information they collect, how it is used, how it is dispensed, etc, security measures around its access, but most importantly, synchronous notification of the reported on by the Bureau, with services provided to the notified to aid in prompt remedy, or failing that a means dispute or correct fraudulent information. Other than that, I object vehemently to these types of datastores. Welcome to investing. Them's the risks. I've worked in finance. Finance for its own sake is not high on my list of things to facilitate. I also prefer discriminatory people be required to appear discriminatory.
    - duped 5y ago
      Maybe we shouldn't have mountains of consumer debt
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  My understanding was it basically was providing a way to incentivize indigent people to behave the law by imposing penalties for failing to pay fines. In the US, fines are mostly meaningless if you are poor as debtor prisons are (rightfully) illegal.
  - adventured 5y ago
    > In the US, fines are mostly meaningless if you are poor as debtor prisons are (rightfully) illegal. You're overwhelmingly correct, however someone is going to shortly reply to your comment with a link to a story about how someone somewhere got jailed over a debt and how debtor prisons are making a comeback. It's extraordinarily rare in the US.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Yes, and also wage garnishment is another thing that is definitely a common thing.
      - mc32 5y ago
        Wage garnishment is predominantly for child support and alimony, no? Is that a bad thing?
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        I don't think so.
        throwawayboise 5y ago
        And unpaid taxes.
  - getcrunk 5y ago
    In the civil context, which you obviously intended, this true. Unfortunately many people are (back) in jail because they can't afford to pay criminal court fines/probation fees
- michaelbrave 5y ago
  Credit score can affect employment, I.E. you can't get hired because you are too poor.
  - evancox100 5y ago
    Or rent an apartment/house in many cases
    - yurishimo 5y ago
      While this is true on a very shallow level, most landlords are happy to rent to "high risk" tenants with increased deposits if you talk to them directly instead of taking your initial rejection at face value.
      - throaway46546 5y ago
        More and more rentals are being gobbled up my big corporations. Finding someone to talk to who has the authority to make an exception can be nigh impossible.
        yurishimo 5y ago
        Eh maybe. I think that largely depends on where you live. Granted, most apartment complexes are falling into that category, but venture out of the city a bit and if you're renting a small 2 bedroom house for $750/mo in Nebraska, it's probably owned by an individual. Worst case scenario, even in a city, you could sublet or get roommates while you rebuild your credit.
        throaway46546 5y ago
        >I think that largely depends on where you live. I suspect you are right. I walk down my block and every other building is owned by the same slumlord. It is bad.
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
- Iefthandrule 5y ago
  Your credit score is run before you can buy a house or rent an apartment. We are already there.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    The difference between a credit score and a social credit score system is one is based on debt payment history and the other based on political dissent & debt payment. Currently saying "Lets Go Brandon" doesn't drop your credit score, in China you may lose quite a few points for posting that pesky bear that likes honey.
    - Iefthandrule 5y ago
      Having an arrest on your record is enough to bar your from job and housing, even if charges were dropped or you were found not guilty. That alone is enough of a chilling effect to affect behavior: for example, staying away from protests or not questioning a police officer. Again, we are already there.
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        A criminal background check is not connected to your credit score and a convicted criminal charge is not the same as political dissent. Stop moving goal posts. I was arrested once and I got the charge expunged with community service. Hasn't affected my job applications so far.
        tehjoker 5y ago
        Is there any evidence that political dissent drops a social credit score?
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Let's wait for the CCP to answer that... They may be too busy with genocide though.

mc32 5y ago

Credit score for ghee most part tries to assure lenders you can repay your debts. Social credit score is about how close you hew to proscribed behavior at large.

mywittyname 5y ago
Credit scores are used as a proxy for Ideal Citizenship. It just so happens to have baked into it enough plausible deniability as to not run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. Turns out, a lot of "bad" actions result in missed bill payments.
- mc32 5y ago
  In a semi anonymous society how else do you suppose one should determine the creditworthiness of someone? It used to be the merchant had to know you and you had to build up your credit with each merchant over time. Credit scoring made it easier for merchants and customers to issue and leverage we credit.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    My comment might come off as an indictment of credit scores. But it really isn't. They absolutely solve the problem that you are pointing out. But they also serve to kind of solve a whole class of other problems around identifying behaviors that correlate with bad credit scores. For example, if you're a land lord who vehemently opposes divorce, it's possible to use a poor credit score as cover to deny renting to this middle-aged guy who is clearly just gone through one.
    - mc32 5y ago
      Sure but previous to credit scores what was the option? References from friends and business acquaintances? Sure credit scores aren’t perfect but they are better than the legacy alternative.
      - salawat 5y ago
        ...Excuse me? Is there a way that could be better rephrased? What was the option for what? You're replying to a post about discriminating against a divorcee, but having the landlord hide it behind the justification of "bad credit". Not to be the missing antecedent police, but are you referring to by 'ther option' the pre-existing excuse to paper over arbitrary discrimination, or to practice of lending/renting in general? The answer is sadly important to the final assessment of meaning. I don't think you mean the former, but I figured I'd be daft and ask.
        mc32 5y ago
        I hear ya. A landlady could very well find out someone is an Antivaxxer who lost their good job and took a lesser job and now has degraded credit and may deny the lease or may want bigger advance. What do you suppose is a better tool you have or would build which hides this person’s history but can vouch for their creditworthiness or lack of it?
        salawat 5y ago
        >What do you suppose is a better tool you have or would build which hides this person’s history but can vouch for their creditworthiness or lack of it? I'm still lost on the part where we're stuck on having to be able to lookup a datastore managed by some private party in order to facilitate these arrangements? I have no interest in perpetuating the credit bureau system. If you're convinced that it's some priceless fixture we must have, then we can talk about setting up a public Bureau; with strict regulations around what type of information they collect, how it is used, how it is dispensed, etc, security measures around its access, but most importantly, synchronous notification of the reported on by the Bureau, with services provided to the notified to aid in prompt remedy, or failing that a means dispute or correct fraudulent information. Other than that, I object vehemently to these types of datastores. Welcome to investing. Them's the risks. I've worked in finance. Finance for its own sake is not high on my list of things to facilitate. I also prefer discriminatory people be required to appear discriminatory.
  - duped 5y ago
    Maybe we shouldn't have mountains of consumer debt
whimsicalism 5y ago
My understanding was it basically was providing a way to incentivize indigent people to behave the law by imposing penalties for failing to pay fines. In the US, fines are mostly meaningless if you are poor as debtor prisons are (rightfully) illegal.
- adventured 5y ago
  > In the US, fines are mostly meaningless if you are poor as debtor prisons are (rightfully) illegal. You're overwhelmingly correct, however someone is going to shortly reply to your comment with a link to a story about how someone somewhere got jailed over a debt and how debtor prisons are making a comeback. It's extraordinarily rare in the US.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Yes, and also wage garnishment is another thing that is definitely a common thing.
    - mc32 5y ago
      Wage garnishment is predominantly for child support and alimony, no? Is that a bad thing?
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        I don't think so.
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        And unpaid taxes.
- getcrunk 5y ago
  In the civil context, which you obviously intended, this true. Unfortunately many people are (back) in jail because they can't afford to pay criminal court fines/probation fees
michaelbrave 5y ago
Credit score can affect employment, I.E. you can't get hired because you are too poor.
- evancox100 5y ago
  Or rent an apartment/house in many cases
  - yurishimo 5y ago
    While this is true on a very shallow level, most landlords are happy to rent to "high risk" tenants with increased deposits if you talk to them directly instead of taking your initial rejection at face value.
    - throaway46546 5y ago
      More and more rentals are being gobbled up my big corporations. Finding someone to talk to who has the authority to make an exception can be nigh impossible.
      - yurishimo 5y ago
        Eh maybe. I think that largely depends on where you live. Granted, most apartment complexes are falling into that category, but venture out of the city a bit and if you're renting a small 2 bedroom house for $750/mo in Nebraska, it's probably owned by an individual. Worst case scenario, even in a city, you could sublet or get roommates while you rebuild your credit.
        throaway46546 5y ago
        >I think that largely depends on where you live. I suspect you are right. I walk down my block and every other building is owned by the same slumlord. It is bad.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
Iefthandrule 5y ago
Your credit score is run before you can buy a house or rent an apartment. We are already there.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  The difference between a credit score and a social credit score system is one is based on debt payment history and the other based on political dissent & debt payment. Currently saying "Lets Go Brandon" doesn't drop your credit score, in China you may lose quite a few points for posting that pesky bear that likes honey.
  - Iefthandrule 5y ago
    Having an arrest on your record is enough to bar your from job and housing, even if charges were dropped or you were found not guilty. That alone is enough of a chilling effect to affect behavior: for example, staying away from protests or not questioning a police officer. Again, we are already there.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      A criminal background check is not connected to your credit score and a convicted criminal charge is not the same as political dissent. Stop moving goal posts. I was arrested once and I got the charge expunged with community service. Hasn't affected my job applications so far.
      - tehjoker 5y ago
        Is there any evidence that political dissent drops a social credit score?
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Let's wait for the CCP to answer that... They may be too busy with genocide though.