8 ms·

Organized retail criminals are making the most of San Francisco’s urban chaos

35 points by Bostonian 5y ago

rossdavidh 5y ago
So, this sounds pretty grim, but I'd be curious to hear from any SF residents if things look like this at all to them. If we were lucky enough to have an actual employee or owner of a business in SF, that would be even better. Is this article a fair depiction of reality in SF today?
- dwaltrip 5y ago
  I visited SF a few weeks ago. I went to a Safeway and the entire aisle where the toothbrushes were located was behind locked see-through panels. Other aisles weren’t as bad. It was rather disorienting. Another patron and I had to be escorted around the store so we could complete our short shopping lists. I didn’t read the article so I can’t compare but I’ve never seen a store lock up that much of their product.
- sshumaker 5y ago
  During the pandemic, crime has shifted from preying on tourists to hitting big box businesses. Particularly pharmacies like CVS/Walgreens and high value items at grocery chains. It’s indeed a problem, but vastly blown out of proportion by folks who want to paint the picture that liberal governance is making SF fall apart. It is expensive to live here, but the quality of life - access to culture, food, green space - is hard to beat if you can afford to live here. Homelessness remains a problem (particularly in the tenderloin) where tent encampments and drug use are a real issue. This isn’t news though (despite “shocked” op-eds in conservative media outlets) and has been endemic for years if not decades. Also not unique from other big cities that have good year-round climates.
0xy 5y ago
I'd love to hear some anecdotes from SF residents. Do you see these gangs operating? How do people react? Have you had stores close near you due to theft?
- __float 5y ago
  My local Safeway (a grocery store) switched to using carts with long poles that can’t leave the store. But I don’t know of any stores that have closed?
  - nradov 5y ago
    Some Safeway stores in SF have reduced opening hours due to shoplifting. https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/579386-san-francisco-grocery-store-closing-earlier-due-to-shoplifting https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/579386-san-francisc...
- mcrae 5y ago
  It really is as bad as it sounds. A couple anecdotes: - Some people without homes pitched a tent on the sidewalk nearby, blocking the sidewalk. The city has a moratorium on clearing tents. I recently walked by and the tent had been consumed by fire, leaving charred furniture and camping equipment behind. It’s been there for a good week now. - multiple times I’ve seen folks grab armfuls of goods and run out. The staff just watch (I don’t blame them.) as a result, most medicines, alcohol, or other things of value (Tide!) are behind locked barriers. - my local Safeway has armed guards, but somehow this doesn’t deter about a half dozen folks from loitering outside. Occasionally one will try to get in and make a run for it. Somehow this doesn’t effect the whole foods across the street. - many streets downtown, including blocks on market, are open drug markets: folks dealing, preparing, and consuming drugs. You literally have to step over passed out bodies. The whole city has a apocalyptic vibe right now. I’m not clear what the cause or solution to these problems are. But I’m kinda sick of people pretending that it’s normal. It isn’t. My mom came from abroad recently to visit. She was horrified and I was embarrassed that she had to see all this.
  - taylodl 5y ago
    I can believe it. I stopped attending conferences in San Francisco. My last conference was in 2017 and I told my boss then I'm never going back. I've had several friends vacationing in SF going back to the 90's and they said they'd never go back and I always said they were over reacting (I've been going to SF on a regular basis for the past twenty years). Not anymore. The homeless were all over the sidewalks and they had added a new feature - aggressive dogs! People follow you into cafes and stand in line behind you and beg for food (which was already 1.5x-2x priced compared to anywhere else in the country). The BART station smells like a latrine. I could go on. > The whole city has a apocalyptic vibe right now. Yes - that's a good way to describe it and that's how I felt. It was unreal. Mind you I regularly visit NYC, Chicago, and Washington, D.C. They're all model cities compared to SF. I can tell you one thing - no job is worth living in SF. I'd either find another job or work remote and live elsewhere.
sparsely 5y ago
> Some of the stats say property crime is actually down in San Francisco, but that is probably a reporting issue, because some store managers have stopped bothering to waste their time filing police complaints. Seems like these stats could have done with a more rigorous investigation, given that they contradict the thesis of the article?
- rdtwo 5y ago
  In Seattle we don’t report properly crime except if insurance requires it. Police can’t be bothered to show up so it’s just a huge headache. I think they just have you fill out your own shit online anyway. I would assume sf is similar. Naturally that discourages reporting and drives crime stays down
  - sct202 5y ago
    Even when you fill out the online police reports they'll often reject it for whatever reason that they want to, and then force you to call it in if you really want it submitted.
- f38zf5vdt 5y ago
  National Review is an American conservative rag that extends a long tradition of American conservative editorialism in the style of William F. Buckley. It would still be pushing for racial segregation were it allowed to.
  - Bostonian 5y ago
    No, I'm sure that the current writers do not secretly yearn for racial segregation. If you read it you would notice that there are some non-white contributors, such as Deroy Murdock and Ramesh Ponnuru.
    - Kye 5y ago
      Other interests often supersede a naïve outsider calculation of self-interest. For example: Log Cabin Republicans, Caitlyn Jenner endorsing Trump (before conceding it was a mistake while continuing to follow the party line), me voting for Democrats even though I know that they will, at best, hold the line against oblivion while grassroots organizers do the real work in the space created by that line.
bilbo0s 5y ago
In Houston we had this exact problem. Most of the stores around our house, (Museum District), switched to shopping carts that won't move if you push them out of the parking lot. That cut down on a lot of that activity. They should get those shopping carts in SF.
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
  They have them in Trader Joe's lots on 9th St. I'm not sure they cut down on theft since it's easy to decant them into a backpack or car and not exactly optimal for a quick getaway.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
What the hell is that opening story? Some weird homeless fanfic about how nice it must be to toss all the free stuff the benevolent dude-bros give you because you're mentally ill and can just steal from stores. And why open with that if your story is about organized gangs of thieves?
- sourcecodeplz 5y ago
  Read the whole piece
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    I did. They blame the dude-bro for voting poorly, which is also dumb. That doesn't explain the bizarre jealous dismissal of homeless people.
29athrowaway 5y ago
Theft under $950 in California is a misdimeanor due to Proposition 47. https://www.courts.ca.gov/prop47.htm https://www.courts.ca.gov/prop47.htm Meaning that if you get caught, you'll get a fine, community service or a tiny amount of jail time... that is, if they even bother spending resources arresting and prosecuting it. Notably, it also applies to forgeries. So if someone forges a fake check for $950 that's a misdemeanor too.
- mhb 5y ago
  What is the penalty in other places?
  - 29athrowaway 5y ago
    Felony. Which implies not only years of prison, but fines, restitution (compensating the victim for the loss) and probation.
    - taylodl 5y ago
      Not true. Has to go over $1,000 to be felony - and that's coming from a red state here in the midwest. This red state is even talking about raising that limit because it was set in the 70's and hasn't been adjusted for inflation. Last I heard they were thinking about $5,000, but I don't think they've done anything. One of the things they'e done is made it the lesser of retail value and wholesale value. You may have stolen $1,500 worth of goods, but it cost the retailer $900 so you're still not committing a felony.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      The cut off point where shoplifting becomes a felony varies by state, but I don't think any state would consider stealing razors a felony for example.
      - 29athrowaway 5y ago
        What about forging a check for $950?
Eric_WVGG 5y ago
It’s refreshing to read a piece of reactionary tripe that feels like it was plucked right out of the nineties. If you’re too young to remember, it was journalism like this that brought us “superpredators” and the Clinton/Biden crime bill. Makes me feel young again. None of which is to say that there isn’t a crime problem in San Francisco — there obviously is. But read this article very carefully, the style is insidious. This is a rushed out opinion piece masquerading as a deeply researched exposé.
breadbreadbread 5y ago
I couldnt get through this article because it is so uncaring towards unhoused and struggling people.

35 points by Bostonian 5y ago

So, this sounds pretty grim, but I'd be curious to hear from any SF residents if things look like this at all to them. If we were lucky enough to have an actual employee or owner of a business in SF, that would be even better. Is this article a fair depiction of reality in SF today?

dwaltrip 5y ago
I visited SF a few weeks ago. I went to a Safeway and the entire aisle where the toothbrushes were located was behind locked see-through panels. Other aisles weren’t as bad. It was rather disorienting. Another patron and I had to be escorted around the store so we could complete our short shopping lists. I didn’t read the article so I can’t compare but I’ve never seen a store lock up that much of their product.
sshumaker 5y ago
During the pandemic, crime has shifted from preying on tourists to hitting big box businesses. Particularly pharmacies like CVS/Walgreens and high value items at grocery chains. It’s indeed a problem, but vastly blown out of proportion by folks who want to paint the picture that liberal governance is making SF fall apart. It is expensive to live here, but the quality of life - access to culture, food, green space - is hard to beat if you can afford to live here. Homelessness remains a problem (particularly in the tenderloin) where tent encampments and drug use are a real issue. This isn’t news though (despite “shocked” op-eds in conservative media outlets) and has been endemic for years if not decades. Also not unique from other big cities that have good year-round climates.

0xy 5y ago

I'd love to hear some anecdotes from SF residents. Do you see these gangs operating? How do people react? Have you had stores close near you due to theft?

__float 5y ago
My local Safeway (a grocery store) switched to using carts with long poles that can’t leave the store. But I don’t know of any stores that have closed?
- nradov 5y ago
  Some Safeway stores in SF have reduced opening hours due to shoplifting. https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/579386-san-francisco-grocery-store-closing-earlier-due-to-shoplifting https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/579386-san-francisc...
mcrae 5y ago
It really is as bad as it sounds. A couple anecdotes: - Some people without homes pitched a tent on the sidewalk nearby, blocking the sidewalk. The city has a moratorium on clearing tents. I recently walked by and the tent had been consumed by fire, leaving charred furniture and camping equipment behind. It’s been there for a good week now. - multiple times I’ve seen folks grab armfuls of goods and run out. The staff just watch (I don’t blame them.) as a result, most medicines, alcohol, or other things of value (Tide!) are behind locked barriers. - my local Safeway has armed guards, but somehow this doesn’t deter about a half dozen folks from loitering outside. Occasionally one will try to get in and make a run for it. Somehow this doesn’t effect the whole foods across the street. - many streets downtown, including blocks on market, are open drug markets: folks dealing, preparing, and consuming drugs. You literally have to step over passed out bodies. The whole city has a apocalyptic vibe right now. I’m not clear what the cause or solution to these problems are. But I’m kinda sick of people pretending that it’s normal. It isn’t. My mom came from abroad recently to visit. She was horrified and I was embarrassed that she had to see all this.
- taylodl 5y ago
  I can believe it. I stopped attending conferences in San Francisco. My last conference was in 2017 and I told my boss then I'm never going back. I've had several friends vacationing in SF going back to the 90's and they said they'd never go back and I always said they were over reacting (I've been going to SF on a regular basis for the past twenty years). Not anymore. The homeless were all over the sidewalks and they had added a new feature - aggressive dogs! People follow you into cafes and stand in line behind you and beg for food (which was already 1.5x-2x priced compared to anywhere else in the country). The BART station smells like a latrine. I could go on. > The whole city has a apocalyptic vibe right now. Yes - that's a good way to describe it and that's how I felt. It was unreal. Mind you I regularly visit NYC, Chicago, and Washington, D.C. They're all model cities compared to SF. I can tell you one thing - no job is worth living in SF. I'd either find another job or work remote and live elsewhere.

sparsely 5y ago

> Some of the stats say property crime is actually down in San Francisco, but that is probably a reporting issue, because some store managers have stopped bothering to waste their time filing police complaints. Seems like these stats could have done with a more rigorous investigation, given that they contradict the thesis of the article?

rdtwo 5y ago
In Seattle we don’t report properly crime except if insurance requires it. Police can’t be bothered to show up so it’s just a huge headache. I think they just have you fill out your own shit online anyway. I would assume sf is similar. Naturally that discourages reporting and drives crime stays down
- sct202 5y ago
  Even when you fill out the online police reports they'll often reject it for whatever reason that they want to, and then force you to call it in if you really want it submitted.
f38zf5vdt 5y ago
National Review is an American conservative rag that extends a long tradition of American conservative editorialism in the style of William F. Buckley. It would still be pushing for racial segregation were it allowed to.
- Bostonian 5y ago
  No, I'm sure that the current writers do not secretly yearn for racial segregation. If you read it you would notice that there are some non-white contributors, such as Deroy Murdock and Ramesh Ponnuru.
  - Kye 5y ago
    Other interests often supersede a naïve outsider calculation of self-interest. For example: Log Cabin Republicans, Caitlyn Jenner endorsing Trump (before conceding it was a mistake while continuing to follow the party line), me voting for Democrats even though I know that they will, at best, hold the line against oblivion while grassroots organizers do the real work in the space created by that line.

bilbo0s 5y ago

In Houston we had this exact problem. Most of the stores around our house, (Museum District), switched to shopping carts that won't move if you push them out of the parking lot. That cut down on a lot of that activity. They should get those shopping carts in SF.

dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
They have them in Trader Joe's lots on 9th St. I'm not sure they cut down on theft since it's easy to decant them into a backpack or car and not exactly optimal for a quick getaway.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

What the hell is that opening story? Some weird homeless fanfic about how nice it must be to toss all the free stuff the benevolent dude-bros give you because you're mentally ill and can just steal from stores. And why open with that if your story is about organized gangs of thieves?

sourcecodeplz 5y ago
Read the whole piece
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  I did. They blame the dude-bro for voting poorly, which is also dumb. That doesn't explain the bizarre jealous dismissal of homeless people.

29athrowaway 5y ago

Theft under $950 in California is a misdimeanor due to Proposition 47. https://www.courts.ca.gov/prop47.htm https://www.courts.ca.gov/prop47.htm Meaning that if you get caught, you'll get a fine, community service or a tiny amount of jail time... that is, if they even bother spending resources arresting and prosecuting it. Notably, it also applies to forgeries. So if someone forges a fake check for $950 that's a misdemeanor too.

mhb 5y ago
What is the penalty in other places?
- 29athrowaway 5y ago
  Felony. Which implies not only years of prison, but fines, restitution (compensating the victim for the loss) and probation.
  - taylodl 5y ago
    Not true. Has to go over $1,000 to be felony - and that's coming from a red state here in the midwest. This red state is even talking about raising that limit because it was set in the 70's and hasn't been adjusted for inflation. Last I heard they were thinking about $5,000, but I don't think they've done anything. One of the things they'e done is made it the lesser of retail value and wholesale value. You may have stolen $1,500 worth of goods, but it cost the retailer $900 so you're still not committing a felony.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    The cut off point where shoplifting becomes a felony varies by state, but I don't think any state would consider stealing razors a felony for example.
    - 29athrowaway 5y ago
      What about forging a check for $950?

Eric_WVGG 5y ago

It’s refreshing to read a piece of reactionary tripe that feels like it was plucked right out of the nineties. If you’re too young to remember, it was journalism like this that brought us “superpredators” and the Clinton/Biden crime bill. Makes me feel young again. None of which is to say that there isn’t a crime problem in San Francisco — there obviously is. But read this article very carefully, the style is insidious. This is a rushed out opinion piece masquerading as a deeply researched exposé.

breadbreadbread 5y ago

I couldnt get through this article because it is so uncaring towards unhoused and struggling people.