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Here’s a general issue I don’t yet understand yet for NFT’s. Suppose you take an amazing photo (or create digital artwork), and pack it up as an NFT on platfor

Here’s a general issue I don’t yet understand yet for NFT’s. Suppose you take an amazing photo (or create digital artwork), and pack it up as an NFT on platform A using token/blockchain technology Alpha. Alice buys this token, and has some sort of limited ownership of your picture. I (a nefarious user) take the same digital photo you displayed on your website, and sell it to Bob on platform B with blockchain Beta. I also take your digital photo, make some minor alterations and put it up again on Platform A with Blockchain alpha and sell it to Charlie. Alice, Bob, and Charlie all think they own the picture, and while they do own their own versions, how do we know Alice is the “right” owner of your photo? Especially in the future when you’re not around to confirm the version Alice has is the right one?

laurencei 5y ago
Yeah - I wondered about this exact issue too. Same as all the NFT "artwork" I see around. Why cant I just literally copy and paste the artwork, maybe change one single pixel, and re-mint it?
- jeffwass 5y ago
  But aside from re-minting it with alterations, you can mint the exact same digital artwork on different NFT platforms, so how do we know which platform is “right”?
  - Joker_vD 5y ago
    Well, you don't. Things don't have identities, not really, and so all the superstructures built upon such concepts collapse the moment when demonstrating this dirty philosophical secret becomes practical ― and digital entities are perfect for such demonstrations.
  - deltron3030 5y ago
    > so how do we know which platform is “right”? The right one is the one the original author of the artwork released it on. The thing about NFTs is the connection between digital items and their authors. If you're like most art collectors you'd follow the author anyway. You'd buy one because you're a fan of the author and enter their nft sales funnel.
    - kibwen 5y ago
      This doesn't address the problem either. How do you know which platform the original author released it on? How do you verify who the original author is? The answer: by consulting a trusted external source. Which raises the question, if we're involving a trusted external source, why not just use that source to track the token rather than involve a blockchain? NFTs are a solution in search of a problem.
      - deltron3030 5y ago
        > if we're involving a trusted external source, why not just use that source to track the token rather than involve a blockchain? How would this work?
gjs278 5y ago
everyone can see the time stamp for the first photo is first. that was easy.
udbhavs 5y ago
You publish your public keys along with the original photo which correspond to the "true" accounts on any chain.
- pdosev 5y ago
  If we're doing cryptography, then why go through the blockchain at all then? I could sell the original private key I used to sign the picture to somebody, and they can prove their ownership all day long. I don't see the value add of a fancy database.
  - cslarson 5y ago
    You can't sell a private key because you can't provably delete any potential remaining copies you might have. You could continue to sell the private key to others.
- aj3 5y ago
  Artist still could sell the same artwork multiple times on a single or multiple exchanges. Or someone could steal their keys and sell the artwork multiple times.
magicalhippo 5y ago
Sign the pixels? No crypto expert but I was thinking something like this: Artist decides to make a run of 100 copies of the work, and generates 100 work signing keys and generates a list of "1/100, work public key 1" etc. Artist then signs this list with their artist signing key, gets a signed timestamp, and publishes this somewhere on their site, along with the public portion of their artist signing key. Artist then signs the (uncompressed) pixels of each copy of the work using the corresponding work signing key. Signature is embedded in the image file along with the work copy details, "1/100", say as a PNG chunk or similar. NFT is created for the work copy, and I'm presuming there's something akin to a signature of the image file in the NFT to link them. If you then get a NFT you can verify that the image file is indeed what the NFT refers to. You can download the work public key from the artist and verify that the public work key is from the artist, and then verify that the work (pixels) is what the artist signed. Then again I don't know the domain enough so might be completely silly and or flawed idea. And obviously it requires a non-lossy image format ala PNG.
- max47 5y ago
  it still doesn't solve anything. You have no way of knowing if the pixels were originally signed by the real artist or not. The only reason it works right now is because that NFTs are so recent that you can just send a DM to artist's twitter to verify if the original set of crypto keys/wallet belong to them. When the artist himself is promoting it, it's not hard to figure out if it's genuine or not. But what happens in 10 years or if you can't trace the original artist? How would you know if I took the picture myself or if I stole it from flicker? if reverse image search doesn't work, it would be impossible.
  - magicalhippo 5y ago
    That's no different from a real picture/painting though is it? Regardless, if you get the current verifiable statements signed by a trusted entity every now and then, you should be able to verify the trust chain, no? Before the old keys expires you get someone to verify and sign with a new key, rinse repeat?
bhaak 5y ago
> I also take your digital photo, make some minor alterations and put it up again on Platform A with Blockchain alpha and sell it to Charlie. That's the same as making unlicensed prints from a manipulated copy. That's a copyright violation. The physical world doesn't protect you from that either. You need to sue either way.
- kabes 5y ago
  Yes, but that's not the point We're trying to find a use case for NFTs, a problem they solve. But there doesn't seem to be one, at least not one I could find in this thread
  - atom_arranger 5y ago
    There would be a record showing the original author put it on the blockchain first. After that’s on there nobody else can remove it. This could be used as evidence of their authorship in court. “Look, here we have a tamper proof ledger showing I uploaded this at X date before it was copied.”
    - jeffwass 5y ago
      Suppose someone scoops the artist’s work and sells their artwork first, without their permission? Eg, I recently saw the “Charlie bit my finger” family will sell an NFT of their video. Is there anything stopping someone else from selling NFT’s of other viral videos before their makers do so? Timestamping would only work for works that are tokenised at the same time as (or prior to) their public release.
      - atom_arranger 5y ago
        When you take someone to court over a copyright violation having proof that you control a wallet that was the first to have minted an NFT representing the work in question would be one piece of evidence that you may be the original author. If there is other evidence, e.g. the other party has a YouTube account which uploaded a video years ago of the work, and is publicly known to be the author of the work, then the judge will probably rule the NFT is not sufficient evidence of ownership/you are not the copyright holder. There is nothing technically stopping people uploading NFTs of things that they don’t own the rights too. That won’t hold up in court though, not even the court of public opinion.
nxpnsv 5y ago
This happens all the time. What is worse is someone minting someone else's art, and then the buyers starts posting takedown requests to the original artist. Amongst others, this happened to Simon Stålenhag of Tales from the Loop fame...
- twox2 5y ago
  This isn't really an issue with NFTs though. It's an issue with people being dicks.
  - nxpnsv 5y ago
    True, but the people requesting takedowns are under the impression they own the thing...
    - web2sucks 5y ago
      This happens outside of NFTS, this happens with everything, US dollars, physical contracts, licenses. They can all be faked. NFTs actually do a better job at allow people to identify fakes, lmao. Do better research.
      - nxpnsv 5y ago
        There is nothing wrong with my research. I reported a fact. OP explains how NFT doesn't solve these problems. But it also confuses a lot of people about what it means to own something.
  - foepys 5y ago
    It will be an issue when NFTs are being used as the only source of truth instead of a judge making a decision based on multiple factors.
kibwen 5y ago
No, you understand it well. NFTs are completely divorced from anything that does not exist on the blockchain. All recourse for establishing ownership in the eyes of the law requires consulting external, centralized sources of authority, making the involvement of a blockchain utterly pointless.
kooshball 5y ago
The simple answer is provenance and blockchain provided this much more than the physical world. The old world analogy to your scenario is you go to a museum and take a picture of an Ansel Adams work, make a print and try to sell it to Bob. Why would bob pay for this. you have to convince him it's a real Ansel Adams. Same thing with NFT. You would have to know artist on alpha is real and beta is not. It's non trivial but again I don't think it's actually that different from the real world today. NFT does not attempt to solve this part. Instead it let you check that the nft you're buying is from alpha and the original artist.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  So basically a current-owner database for some list of products, maybe a brand? There's simple ways of running such databases that don't require blockchain.
- iamacyborg 5y ago
  The difference here of course is that you can perfectly reproduce the digital artifact, you can't do that with the Ansel Adams print.
  - kooshball 5y ago
    I think whether its perfect or not is irrelevant. You can make a high enough quality one that Bob wont know the difference. Same with any traditional art like paintings. Forgeries are not impossible.
EarthLaunch 5y ago
Simple: Have the government recognize NFT ownership and enforce it. Perhaps that's the future of blockchains: Automated records for the masses enforced by central government, with courts to provide exceptions.

laurencei 5y ago

Yeah - I wondered about this exact issue too. Same as all the NFT "artwork" I see around. Why cant I just literally copy and paste the artwork, maybe change one single pixel, and re-mint it?

jeffwass 5y ago
But aside from re-minting it with alterations, you can mint the exact same digital artwork on different NFT platforms, so how do we know which platform is “right”?
- Joker_vD 5y ago
  Well, you don't. Things don't have identities, not really, and so all the superstructures built upon such concepts collapse the moment when demonstrating this dirty philosophical secret becomes practical ― and digital entities are perfect for such demonstrations.
- deltron3030 5y ago
  > so how do we know which platform is “right”? The right one is the one the original author of the artwork released it on. The thing about NFTs is the connection between digital items and their authors. If you're like most art collectors you'd follow the author anyway. You'd buy one because you're a fan of the author and enter their nft sales funnel.
  - kibwen 5y ago
    This doesn't address the problem either. How do you know which platform the original author released it on? How do you verify who the original author is? The answer: by consulting a trusted external source. Which raises the question, if we're involving a trusted external source, why not just use that source to track the token rather than involve a blockchain? NFTs are a solution in search of a problem.
    - deltron3030 5y ago
      > if we're involving a trusted external source, why not just use that source to track the token rather than involve a blockchain? How would this work?

gjs278 5y ago

everyone can see the time stamp for the first photo is first. that was easy.

udbhavs 5y ago

You publish your public keys along with the original photo which correspond to the "true" accounts on any chain.

pdosev 5y ago
If we're doing cryptography, then why go through the blockchain at all then? I could sell the original private key I used to sign the picture to somebody, and they can prove their ownership all day long. I don't see the value add of a fancy database.
- cslarson 5y ago
  You can't sell a private key because you can't provably delete any potential remaining copies you might have. You could continue to sell the private key to others.
aj3 5y ago
Artist still could sell the same artwork multiple times on a single or multiple exchanges. Or someone could steal their keys and sell the artwork multiple times.

magicalhippo 5y ago

Sign the pixels? No crypto expert but I was thinking something like this: Artist decides to make a run of 100 copies of the work, and generates 100 work signing keys and generates a list of "1/100, work public key 1" etc. Artist then signs this list with their artist signing key, gets a signed timestamp, and publishes this somewhere on their site, along with the public portion of their artist signing key. Artist then signs the (uncompressed) pixels of each copy of the work using the corresponding work signing key. Signature is embedded in the image file along with the work copy details, "1/100", say as a PNG chunk or similar. NFT is created for the work copy, and I'm presuming there's something akin to a signature of the image file in the NFT to link them. If you then get a NFT you can verify that the image file is indeed what the NFT refers to. You can download the work public key from the artist and verify that the public work key is from the artist, and then verify that the work (pixels) is what the artist signed. Then again I don't know the domain enough so might be completely silly and or flawed idea. And obviously it requires a non-lossy image format ala PNG.

max47 5y ago
it still doesn't solve anything. You have no way of knowing if the pixels were originally signed by the real artist or not. The only reason it works right now is because that NFTs are so recent that you can just send a DM to artist's twitter to verify if the original set of crypto keys/wallet belong to them. When the artist himself is promoting it, it's not hard to figure out if it's genuine or not. But what happens in 10 years or if you can't trace the original artist? How would you know if I took the picture myself or if I stole it from flicker? if reverse image search doesn't work, it would be impossible.
- magicalhippo 5y ago
  That's no different from a real picture/painting though is it? Regardless, if you get the current verifiable statements signed by a trusted entity every now and then, you should be able to verify the trust chain, no? Before the old keys expires you get someone to verify and sign with a new key, rinse repeat?

bhaak 5y ago

> I also take your digital photo, make some minor alterations and put it up again on Platform A with Blockchain alpha and sell it to Charlie. That's the same as making unlicensed prints from a manipulated copy. That's a copyright violation. The physical world doesn't protect you from that either. You need to sue either way.

kabes 5y ago
Yes, but that's not the point We're trying to find a use case for NFTs, a problem they solve. But there doesn't seem to be one, at least not one I could find in this thread
- atom_arranger 5y ago
  There would be a record showing the original author put it on the blockchain first. After that’s on there nobody else can remove it. This could be used as evidence of their authorship in court. “Look, here we have a tamper proof ledger showing I uploaded this at X date before it was copied.”
  - jeffwass 5y ago
    Suppose someone scoops the artist’s work and sells their artwork first, without their permission? Eg, I recently saw the “Charlie bit my finger” family will sell an NFT of their video. Is there anything stopping someone else from selling NFT’s of other viral videos before their makers do so? Timestamping would only work for works that are tokenised at the same time as (or prior to) their public release.
    - atom_arranger 5y ago
      When you take someone to court over a copyright violation having proof that you control a wallet that was the first to have minted an NFT representing the work in question would be one piece of evidence that you may be the original author. If there is other evidence, e.g. the other party has a YouTube account which uploaded a video years ago of the work, and is publicly known to be the author of the work, then the judge will probably rule the NFT is not sufficient evidence of ownership/you are not the copyright holder. There is nothing technically stopping people uploading NFTs of things that they don’t own the rights too. That won’t hold up in court though, not even the court of public opinion.

nxpnsv 5y ago

This happens all the time. What is worse is someone minting someone else's art, and then the buyers starts posting takedown requests to the original artist. Amongst others, this happened to Simon Stålenhag of Tales from the Loop fame...

twox2 5y ago
This isn't really an issue with NFTs though. It's an issue with people being dicks.
- nxpnsv 5y ago
  True, but the people requesting takedowns are under the impression they own the thing...
  - web2sucks 5y ago
    This happens outside of NFTS, this happens with everything, US dollars, physical contracts, licenses. They can all be faked. NFTs actually do a better job at allow people to identify fakes, lmao. Do better research.
    - nxpnsv 5y ago
      There is nothing wrong with my research. I reported a fact. OP explains how NFT doesn't solve these problems. But it also confuses a lot of people about what it means to own something.
- foepys 5y ago
  It will be an issue when NFTs are being used as the only source of truth instead of a judge making a decision based on multiple factors.

kibwen 5y ago

No, you understand it well. NFTs are completely divorced from anything that does not exist on the blockchain. All recourse for establishing ownership in the eyes of the law requires consulting external, centralized sources of authority, making the involvement of a blockchain utterly pointless.

kooshball 5y ago

The simple answer is provenance and blockchain provided this much more than the physical world. The old world analogy to your scenario is you go to a museum and take a picture of an Ansel Adams work, make a print and try to sell it to Bob. Why would bob pay for this. you have to convince him it's a real Ansel Adams. Same thing with NFT. You would have to know artist on alpha is real and beta is not. It's non trivial but again I don't think it's actually that different from the real world today. NFT does not attempt to solve this part. Instead it let you check that the nft you're buying is from alpha and the original artist.

lordnacho 5y ago
So basically a current-owner database for some list of products, maybe a brand? There's simple ways of running such databases that don't require blockchain.
iamacyborg 5y ago
The difference here of course is that you can perfectly reproduce the digital artifact, you can't do that with the Ansel Adams print.
- kooshball 5y ago
  I think whether its perfect or not is irrelevant. You can make a high enough quality one that Bob wont know the difference. Same with any traditional art like paintings. Forgeries are not impossible.

EarthLaunch 5y ago

Simple: Have the government recognize NFT ownership and enforce it. Perhaps that's the future of blockchains: Automated records for the masses enforced by central government, with courts to provide exceptions.