8 ms·

> It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car.

> It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car. It's true that a bicycle is itself cheaper than a car, but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks. The bicycle itself isn't the expensive part; you need proximity, extra commute time, and infrastructure. That stuff just isn't accessible to many people.

nradov 5y ago
In urban areas I see a lot of the lowest income restaurant workers commuting by bike. Those people often live fairly close to work, but are in some kind of precarious semi-legal housing situation or actually homeless. Most aren't citizens and are basically invisible to politicians and urban planners. For example check out the restaurants in Mountain View, CA patronized by affluent employees of Google and LinkedIn. Walk around back and you'll see a bunch of cheap bikes.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jeffbee 5y ago
> bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks Stereotypes are only useful to the extent that they contain a kernel of truth, and this one is just false. The largest group of American bicycle-to-work riders lies in the $20-30k/year income group, i.e. poor people. With each increase of $10k/year income there are fewer riders. https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/number_bike_income.png https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
mjmahone17 5y ago
Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant, if you’re willing to forgo a car. Especially if you convert the car savings to rent or mortgage payments. Basically, if you can be all-in on not driving, you save a lot. But once you even want to drive a little bit, the savings to driving only sometimes instead of all the time is not very large (and can in fact be negative, as you pointed out with needing closer housing with parking). Unless it allows you to go from a two to one car family.
- fnord77 5y ago
  5 miles is quite a distance for a bike commute. I've done about this distance for a while and I won't go back to doing it. Interestingly, the average distance the Dutch ride is about 1.2 miles per day: https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-biking-dutch-hardly-bike https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-b...
  - _se 5y ago
    5 miles is a very easy bike commute, not sure what you're talking about. It's about 20 minutes each way.
    - wmil 5y ago
      Google maps estimates it about 35 minutes, so almost twice as long as you're thinking.
      - _se 5y ago
        I do it every day. It depends on elevation gain (so it could take much longer depending on the route) but usually I'm closer to 15 minutes than 20. 15mph on average for a daily bike commuter doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me.
        oarabbus_ 5y ago
        You're claiming you can ride 5 miles in closer to 15 minutes than 20, and through a city?
        Jensson 5y ago
        If you commute you will mostly ride on dedicated bike lanes without many stops so you can go at full speed most of the way. I've commuted around 3 miles in a not so bike friendly city in Europe and it took about 15 minutes since there are dedicated bikeways without any traffic lights you can take most of the way. If you commute in rush hour that is actually a lot faster than going by car, so biking is the fastest option available. Edit: And that was at a leisurely pace, similar to the effort of walking.
slt2021 5y ago
i heard that in US living in downtown is for poor people, and rich people prefer slrawling suburbs
- nradov 5y ago
  That was the stereotypical pattern for decades, but gentrification has somewhat reversed it in first tier cities. Families with small children do still tend to move out to the suburbs in search of better quality schools and more living space.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  I saw an article the other day about a woman in California who rents a studio apartment (i.e. no dedicated bedroom) for $1900 a month, and was worried it would jump up to the usual $2,300 a month after the covid special pricing ended. Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land, or a nicely remodeled house with a small yard and river views in a town if you prefer. Or, with enough for a minimum down payment saved up, you could also buy a small house on 5 acres in a forest. Granted, you'll pay more for owning a car, but... deciding between studio, or a prime house for $300 less per month, and the car doesn't sound too unreasonable.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land, Probably do that in rural CA, too (certainly you can get a nice single family home in many CA suburbs), and not be as far (but probably still too far) from the job the individual in question has that enables paying $2,000/mo in the first place. And similar work closer (to either rural CA or the upper Midwest) would pay less.
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      Eh, most people near me commute less than an hour to a metro area with pretty much any job you could want available, if you didn't like what nearby jobs were paying. I'm not quite rural, but not suburbia either (nearest burb is 15 minutes of driving once you get to the highway). If you went really rural, you would be able to get much more for your money.
johnwalkr 5y ago
I think this is North American centric. In Asia and Europe housing to job centres is probably closer on average due to zoning. There’s less separation of “suburban housing areas” and “working areas”. There’s also less separation to shopping, etc so bikes are more feasible in general. For these reason and I’m sure others, bicycles for commuting are more popular outside of North America.
richiebful1 5y ago
This doesn't generalize to most cities though. In my Rust Belt city, the government has put a lot of effort into making cycling safer on the road. The people cycling from one neighborhood to the next are a diverse bunch. Kids are using cheap hand-me-down bikes to go to school. College kids are commuting to campus. Adults of all ages are riding to work at a service job or downtown office. What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods. The rich lycra-wearing stereotype won't go away until we invest in equitable access to bike infrastructure.
- mcny 5y ago
  » What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods. I've never been to Chattanooga, TN but once I realized I can work from home I've been curious about owning a home somewhere with gigabit fiber but without ridiculously expensive real estate within commuting distance to a Costco or Sam's Club (so clearly not Jersey City, NJ or Longmont, CO). What I noticed just looking at Google Maps Street View was that any home within my price range lacked a sidewalk. Apparently, only the wealthy people in Chattanooga, TN need sidewalks. How do we talk about bike lanes when places lack sidewalks?
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    TN is a tax haven state. You're not going to get polished municipal services and infrastructure. Western New York has cheap housing and older, 150+ year old urbanization that doesn't suffer as much from 20th century shortsightedness.
    - howenterprisey 5y ago
      What are some other tax haven states I should know about?
      - 5y ago
ben_w 5y ago
> but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks. Perhaps in some places (where the major newspapers are?), but there area I grew up in has residential, industrial, and commercial all mixed up in a way that solves that issue: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.8285/-1.0276 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.8285/-1.0276 (Likewise Berlin, though Berlin also has much better public transport).
- stavros 5y ago
  I think the zoning thing is more of a "US vs other places" issue.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I was thinking that at first and was originally going to suggest that, then I realised there’s a similar stereotype in the UK despite the mixed land use.

nradov 5y ago

In urban areas I see a lot of the lowest income restaurant workers commuting by bike. Those people often live fairly close to work, but are in some kind of precarious semi-legal housing situation or actually homeless. Most aren't citizens and are basically invisible to politicians and urban planners. For example check out the restaurants in Mountain View, CA patronized by affluent employees of Google and LinkedIn. Walk around back and you'll see a bunch of cheap bikes.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jeffbee 5y ago

> bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks Stereotypes are only useful to the extent that they contain a kernel of truth, and this one is just false. The largest group of American bicycle-to-work riders lies in the $20-30k/year income group, i.e. poor people. With each increase of $10k/year income there are fewer riders. https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/number_bike_income.png https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...

mjmahone17 5y ago

Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant, if you’re willing to forgo a car. Especially if you convert the car savings to rent or mortgage payments. Basically, if you can be all-in on not driving, you save a lot. But once you even want to drive a little bit, the savings to driving only sometimes instead of all the time is not very large (and can in fact be negative, as you pointed out with needing closer housing with parking). Unless it allows you to go from a two to one car family.

fnord77 5y ago
5 miles is quite a distance for a bike commute. I've done about this distance for a while and I won't go back to doing it. Interestingly, the average distance the Dutch ride is about 1.2 miles per day: https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-biking-dutch-hardly-bike https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/best-kept-secret-dutch-b...
- _se 5y ago
  5 miles is a very easy bike commute, not sure what you're talking about. It's about 20 minutes each way.
  - wmil 5y ago
    Google maps estimates it about 35 minutes, so almost twice as long as you're thinking.
    - _se 5y ago
      I do it every day. It depends on elevation gain (so it could take much longer depending on the route) but usually I'm closer to 15 minutes than 20. 15mph on average for a daily bike commuter doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me.
      - oarabbus_ 5y ago
        You're claiming you can ride 5 miles in closer to 15 minutes than 20, and through a city?
        Jensson 5y ago
        If you commute you will mostly ride on dedicated bike lanes without many stops so you can go at full speed most of the way. I've commuted around 3 miles in a not so bike friendly city in Europe and it took about 15 minutes since there are dedicated bikeways without any traffic lights you can take most of the way. If you commute in rush hour that is actually a lot faster than going by car, so biking is the fastest option available. Edit: And that was at a leisurely pace, similar to the effort of walking.

slt2021 5y ago

i heard that in US living in downtown is for poor people, and rich people prefer slrawling suburbs

nradov 5y ago
That was the stereotypical pattern for decades, but gentrification has somewhat reversed it in first tier cities. Families with small children do still tend to move out to the suburbs in search of better quality schools and more living space.
zdragnar 5y ago
I saw an article the other day about a woman in California who rents a studio apartment (i.e. no dedicated bedroom) for $1900 a month, and was worried it would jump up to the usual $2,300 a month after the covid special pricing ended. Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land, or a nicely remodeled house with a small yard and river views in a town if you prefer. Or, with enough for a minimum down payment saved up, you could also buy a small house on 5 acres in a forest. Granted, you'll pay more for owning a car, but... deciding between studio, or a prime house for $300 less per month, and the car doesn't sound too unreasonable.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Meanwhile, for $2,000 a month in the upper midwest you can rent a house with multiple bedrooms and bathroom on 40 acres of land, Probably do that in rural CA, too (certainly you can get a nice single family home in many CA suburbs), and not be as far (but probably still too far) from the job the individual in question has that enables paying $2,000/mo in the first place. And similar work closer (to either rural CA or the upper Midwest) would pay less.
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    Eh, most people near me commute less than an hour to a metro area with pretty much any job you could want available, if you didn't like what nearby jobs were paying. I'm not quite rural, but not suburbia either (nearest burb is 15 minutes of driving once you get to the highway). If you went really rural, you would be able to get much more for your money.

johnwalkr 5y ago

I think this is North American centric. In Asia and Europe housing to job centres is probably closer on average due to zoning. There’s less separation of “suburban housing areas” and “working areas”. There’s also less separation to shopping, etc so bikes are more feasible in general. For these reason and I’m sure others, bicycles for commuting are more popular outside of North America.

richiebful1 5y ago

This doesn't generalize to most cities though. In my Rust Belt city, the government has put a lot of effort into making cycling safer on the road. The people cycling from one neighborhood to the next are a diverse bunch. Kids are using cheap hand-me-down bikes to go to school. College kids are commuting to campus. Adults of all ages are riding to work at a service job or downtown office. What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods. The rich lycra-wearing stereotype won't go away until we invest in equitable access to bike infrastructure.

mcny 5y ago
» What it took was a focus on good quality bike lanes outside the affluent white neighborhoods, bike accessibility at transit stations/on busses, and expansion of bikeshare to poorer neighborhoods. I've never been to Chattanooga, TN but once I realized I can work from home I've been curious about owning a home somewhere with gigabit fiber but without ridiculously expensive real estate within commuting distance to a Costco or Sam's Club (so clearly not Jersey City, NJ or Longmont, CO). What I noticed just looking at Google Maps Street View was that any home within my price range lacked a sidewalk. Apparently, only the wealthy people in Chattanooga, TN need sidewalks. How do we talk about bike lanes when places lack sidewalks?
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  TN is a tax haven state. You're not going to get polished municipal services and infrastructure. Western New York has cheap housing and older, 150+ year old urbanization that doesn't suffer as much from 20th century shortsightedness.
  - howenterprisey 5y ago
    What are some other tax haven states I should know about?
    - 5y ago

ben_w 5y ago

> but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks. Perhaps in some places (where the major newspapers are?), but there area I grew up in has residential, industrial, and commercial all mixed up in a way that solves that issue: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.8285/-1.0276 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.8285/-1.0276 (Likewise Berlin, though Berlin also has much better public transport).

stavros 5y ago
I think the zoning thing is more of a "US vs other places" issue.
- ben_w 5y ago
  I was thinking that at first and was originally going to suggest that, then I realised there’s a similar stereotype in the UK despite the mixed land use.