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> they change the politics around cycling While I agree with e-bikes being a generally good thing, I also think they involve a lot of secondary consequences an

> they change the politics around cycling While I agree with e-bikes being a generally good thing, I also think they involve a lot of secondary consequences and we still need to figure out the best solutions. For example, having more e-bikes on the already overcrowded bike path near where I live is becoming a disaster. There had already been enough problems with mismatched speeds, impatience on all sides, etc. There had even been fatalities. Adding e-bikes makes all of that even worse. While I have little love for the "rich lycra-clad yuppies" (there really are plenty of them) who are mostly just horrified by the idea of their hobby becoming more inclusive, I kind of agree with them that the path can't safely support yet another (faster, heavier) type of conveyance. I wouldn't want horses on the path for the same reason. There's a complementary issue with e-bikes on roads. There's still going to be a speed mismatch, with e-bikes in the middle this time instead of the high end. Bike lanes are going to become more dangerous, traffic-light timings will have to change, etc. Where are the e-bikes going to be parked or stored while not in use? On my now-ended visits to Seattle I saw these problems already manifesting, and they're likely to become even worse as e-bikes continue to become more popular. In the long term, maybe the "changed politics" will lead to improved infrastructure that supports all classes of users including e-bikes. In the short term, it's likely to be a free-for-all like I used to see in Bangalore with all the tuk-tuks and scooters mixed in with cars and trucks and buses. Not looking forward to it.

notatoad 5y ago
this is exactly the politics around cycling that need to change. cyclists have been asking for better infrastructure for decades, and been told to go play in traffic because we're a weird niche interest group who can be ignored. we need better infrastructure for non-car transportation. the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to.
- notacoward 5y ago
  > the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to. Did you miss the part where the cyclists are the ones inflicting that hell on others sometimes? Cyclists haven't been the only ones demanding better non-automotive infrastructure. I've supported the local path with both my dollars and the sweat of my brow, only to have freeloading cyclists tell me that they have priority (exactly opposite to how the laws are written) and I should get out of their way. One political change that needs to happen is that cyclists need to stop looking down their noses at other non-automotive users. When cyclists stop treating pedestrians exactly the same way they complain about being treated by cars, maybe greater cooperation will be possible. Nobody likes the smell of hypocrisy.
  - notatoad 5y ago
    again, this is exactly the sort of politics that hopefully will change as more people ride bikes. yes, there's some bad cyclists. but because there's few enough cyclists, people who aren't cyclists like to group us all together. when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. but when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists, as if we're all the same, because we're just a group of weirdos that you don't feel a part of.
    - notacoward 5y ago
      > when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists No, I don't, and even if that was meant as a generic "you" it seems a bit like attempted mind-reading. How about not doing that? FWIW, the people I've worked with on maintaining my local path are mostly cyclists. No friction there. When people call out "on your left" (interestingly that's most of the women and damn few of the men) I always say "thank you" in return. I'm well aware that most cyclists are good people and I treat them as such, but there are enough - and an even higher percentage among cycling activists - that it's a problem. I guess I should have been more explicit about referring to that subset earlier, but other cyclists should be aware that those are the ones people remember (it's basic math + psychology) and exert peer pressure accordingly instead of getting aggressive themselves every time the issue comes up.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      > when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. Ya know, I don't have to look any farther than this discussion to see people doing exactly that, painting all drivers as bad.
    - mrep 5y ago
      In my experience, the percentage of cyclists that disregard the rules of the road are an order of magnitude higher than car drivers.
gnarcoregrizz 5y ago
Maybe the problem is that bike paths are too small? Cars are granted 12 feet per-lane, often with multiple lanes.
- notacoward 5y ago
  That is very much part of the problem. The solution is going to run into both financial and legal obstacles, so it's imperative that the various stakeholders cooperate instead of one group consistently trying to lord it over the others.
nradov 5y ago
I'm a bit of a "rich lycra-clad yuppy" myself, and occasionally ride with other such cyclists. I've literally never heard anyone express horror at the idea of their hobby becoming more inclusive. Mostly e-bike riders are just ignored. Like they don't affect us in any way and we barely even notice that they exist.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  The worst you get from "real" cyclists is the occasional complaint that you are cheating.

notatoad 5y ago

this is exactly the politics around cycling that need to change. cyclists have been asking for better infrastructure for decades, and been told to go play in traffic because we're a weird niche interest group who can be ignored. we need better infrastructure for non-car transportation. the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to.

notacoward 5y ago
> the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to. Did you miss the part where the cyclists are the ones inflicting that hell on others sometimes? Cyclists haven't been the only ones demanding better non-automotive infrastructure. I've supported the local path with both my dollars and the sweat of my brow, only to have freeloading cyclists tell me that they have priority (exactly opposite to how the laws are written) and I should get out of their way. One political change that needs to happen is that cyclists need to stop looking down their noses at other non-automotive users. When cyclists stop treating pedestrians exactly the same way they complain about being treated by cars, maybe greater cooperation will be possible. Nobody likes the smell of hypocrisy.
- notatoad 5y ago
  again, this is exactly the sort of politics that hopefully will change as more people ride bikes. yes, there's some bad cyclists. but because there's few enough cyclists, people who aren't cyclists like to group us all together. when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. but when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists, as if we're all the same, because we're just a group of weirdos that you don't feel a part of.
  - notacoward 5y ago
    > when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists No, I don't, and even if that was meant as a generic "you" it seems a bit like attempted mind-reading. How about not doing that? FWIW, the people I've worked with on maintaining my local path are mostly cyclists. No friction there. When people call out "on your left" (interestingly that's most of the women and damn few of the men) I always say "thank you" in return. I'm well aware that most cyclists are good people and I treat them as such, but there are enough - and an even higher percentage among cycling activists - that it's a problem. I guess I should have been more explicit about referring to that subset earlier, but other cyclists should be aware that those are the ones people remember (it's basic math + psychology) and exert peer pressure accordingly instead of getting aggressive themselves every time the issue comes up.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. Ya know, I don't have to look any farther than this discussion to see people doing exactly that, painting all drivers as bad.
  - mrep 5y ago
    In my experience, the percentage of cyclists that disregard the rules of the road are an order of magnitude higher than car drivers.

gnarcoregrizz 5y ago

Maybe the problem is that bike paths are too small? Cars are granted 12 feet per-lane, often with multiple lanes.

notacoward 5y ago
That is very much part of the problem. The solution is going to run into both financial and legal obstacles, so it's imperative that the various stakeholders cooperate instead of one group consistently trying to lord it over the others.

nradov 5y ago

I'm a bit of a "rich lycra-clad yuppy" myself, and occasionally ride with other such cyclists. I've literally never heard anyone express horror at the idea of their hobby becoming more inclusive. Mostly e-bike riders are just ignored. Like they don't affect us in any way and we barely even notice that they exist.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
The worst you get from "real" cyclists is the occasional complaint that you are cheating.