7 ms·

Even if they don't generate money from that, catching people speeding is a public service. If one disagrees with the idea that speeding is bad, then why don't w

Even if they don't generate money from that, catching people speeding is a public service. If one disagrees with the idea that speeding is bad, then why don't we raise speed limits until the speeds deemed "reasonable" at under the limit.

rwmj 5y ago
Sure, but fixed cameras along the route must be a lot cheaper than the plane.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  They are illegal in a lot of states. I no small part because of the egalitarian nature of them. Government officials are getting ticketed and they get the same treatment as the rest of us. Some states have ruled them unconstitutional.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  They're on Waze five minutes later.
  - Zak 5y ago
    Good. If it's actually important that people drive slower in that area, everybody knowing there are speed cameras will have that effect.
    - oh-4-fucks-sake 5y ago
      Looking at you: - Crotch rockets (driven by dudes in jorts and a t-shirt flapping in the wind) - Dodge chargers w/ aftermarket exhausts - BMWs with iridescent vehicle wraps - Lifted pickup trucks with massively oversized tires
      - cheeze 5y ago
        This reads like a Reddit comment.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      If everyone guns it right after passing the camera, you've potentially made things more dangerous. Aircraft allow for a "you could get caught at any time" deterrent that cameras can't unless you put them literally everywhere.
      - Gwypaas 5y ago
        They still increase the safety by limiting the speed in for example an exposed intersection. On the other hand you can go the average speed route instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Average_speed_measurement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Averag...
    - konschubert 5y ago
      The cameras are more effective if people have to expect them everywhere, because then they will (hopefully) stick to the speed limit everywhere.
    - megablast 5y ago
      This is such an insane take. The speed limit is for everywhere for safety. They faster people go the more dangerous it is.
      - jonathankoren 5y ago
        Actually, people tend to drive at the speed that is safe, and traffic engineers set the limit at about the 85th percentile of the observed speed. Maximum limits on safe roads are usually lower than the observed speed, and so serve no purpose from a safety perspective. Traffic calming techniques like narrower lane widths and widths are shown to be more effective than police enforcement. The “downside” of these methods are that they’re actually effective at controlling speed, and thus are a revenue loss.
        xorcist 5y ago
        > Actually, people tend to drive at the speed that is safe, That not remotely true in any part of the world I've visited so far.
        Edman274 5y ago
        Not the person you replied to, but I really feel like enforcement must be a pretty substantial part of what stops people from speeding and driving recklessly, given that traffic enforcement has been de-emphasized since the start of the pandemic and the number of road fatalities has gone up more than 7 percent, even though the actual number of miles driven has gone down. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show-increased-traffic-fatalities-during-pandemic https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show... If people drive at whatever speed they think is safe, then why would the aggregate number of people dying on roadways ever go up when miles driven by the same population goes down? Here are the possibilities: 1. Driving has become more risky due to external, uncontrollable factors, like weather or road changes that motorists can't account for or 2. People are modifying their behavior. Why would they modify their behavior? The roads haven't changed. The speed limits haven't changed. What has changed? More people are dead because of extreme speed and reckless driving on roadways, which kind of suggests that traffic enforcement did at least prevent some of those deaths.
  - echelon 5y ago
    I'm a staunch privacy advocate, but we have thousands of people in my state dying a year from automobile accidents. (On par with gun deaths, a figure which includes 60+% suicides.) I'm not sure I'd fight it if we lined the entire interstate highway system with plate detectors. If your average speed is above a reasonable limit (80mph on low density straightaways?), then you receive a ticket at a rate multiplied by the duration of infraction.
    - closeparen 5y ago
      Where there’s a lot of speeding to catch is low density straightaways marked 35.
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      Norway and Finland fines proportional to your yearly salary. Of course there are some problems with that, but in general I like that system more.
  - kccqzy 5y ago
    You can make these cameras so dense that there is very little opportunity for speeding in between two cameras.
    - guruz 5y ago
      No need for so many cameras. You only need two :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera)#Similar_systems_in_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera)#Similar_s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Average_speed_measurement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Averag... (Sorry for the nerdy nitpick)
      - jhugo 5y ago
        flashback to Calc 101 and the Mean Value Theorem!
    - occamrazor 5y ago
      This is essentially the way it works in Switzerland. On motorways there are speed cameras every few kilometers: even with an app to warn you, it’s not worth trying to speed between cameras.
      - kmonsen 5y ago
        Oh man I got so many speeding tickets in Switzerland (like 5 in two years). They were all super minor like $50 or something? I heard it does not apply to all cantons, the Italian ones speeding is more OK. All that being said I really dislike the US system where you can pass a police car driving 75 on the 101 and he doesn't care. There has to be some enforcement of the rules.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        > All that being said I really dislike the US system where you can pass a police car driving 75 on the 101 and he doesn't care. There has to be some enforcement of the rules. The US system is a probable cause generator.
  - jonathankoren 5y ago
    So? Wouldn’t people that know the cameras are there drive slower than the people that don’t? From a public safety point of view, known cameras are more effective at limiting speed than unknown ones. Reducing lane width is also shown to be a very effective speed control methodology, that does not require police enforcement.[0] Or are you concerned about a loss of local and state revenue? Seriously, the use of police for revenue generation, rather than public safety is an open secret among police and local governments.[1][2][3] [0] https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/street-design-elements/lane-width/ https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/stre... [1] https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ [2] https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/generating-new-revenue-streams/ https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/generating-new-revenue-s... [3] https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-benefits-of-fewer-nypd-arrests/384126/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-ben...
  - 404mm 5y ago
    That’s simple. Just do one camera at the beginning, one at the end and you can get average speed by simple math. While it allows you to go above the speed limit, you also have to slow down to “lose” that earned time so at the end it averages back to speed limit. Go ahead and advertise this speed trap well because the more people understand how this works the better.
TigeriusKirk 5y ago
OK, let's do that.
- dymk 5y ago
  60 is plenty on Highway 18, especially during these wet fall and icy winter months
  - zionic 5y ago
    60 as a limit on any controlled access road is an absolute joke.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  It turns out to be more difficult than people want. to be certain, some speed limits are low for bad-science reasons. But the other issue is that the speed limit isn't set for the average case; it's set for the safety-limit case. As one highway engineer's blog put it colorfully (paraphrasing from memory): they aren't set to keep your decently-well-maintained 4-door sedan with tires installed this year on the road; they're set to keep the 18-wheeler driven by a sleep-deprived trucker at night during a light drizzle on the road when one of their tires blows. Variable speed limits that adjust automatically with weather and lighting conditions can help, but the signage to indicate them costs money... Way more money than a static metal road sign.

rwmj 5y ago

Sure, but fixed cameras along the route must be a lot cheaper than the plane.

mywittyname 5y ago
They are illegal in a lot of states. I no small part because of the egalitarian nature of them. Government officials are getting ticketed and they get the same treatment as the rest of us. Some states have ruled them unconstitutional.
ceejayoz 5y ago
They're on Waze five minutes later.
- Zak 5y ago
  Good. If it's actually important that people drive slower in that area, everybody knowing there are speed cameras will have that effect.
  - oh-4-fucks-sake 5y ago
    Looking at you: - Crotch rockets (driven by dudes in jorts and a t-shirt flapping in the wind) - Dodge chargers w/ aftermarket exhausts - BMWs with iridescent vehicle wraps - Lifted pickup trucks with massively oversized tires
    - cheeze 5y ago
      This reads like a Reddit comment.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    If everyone guns it right after passing the camera, you've potentially made things more dangerous. Aircraft allow for a "you could get caught at any time" deterrent that cameras can't unless you put them literally everywhere.
    - Gwypaas 5y ago
      They still increase the safety by limiting the speed in for example an exposed intersection. On the other hand you can go the average speed route instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Average_speed_measurement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Averag...
  - konschubert 5y ago
    The cameras are more effective if people have to expect them everywhere, because then they will (hopefully) stick to the speed limit everywhere.
  - megablast 5y ago
    This is such an insane take. The speed limit is for everywhere for safety. They faster people go the more dangerous it is.
    - jonathankoren 5y ago
      Actually, people tend to drive at the speed that is safe, and traffic engineers set the limit at about the 85th percentile of the observed speed. Maximum limits on safe roads are usually lower than the observed speed, and so serve no purpose from a safety perspective. Traffic calming techniques like narrower lane widths and widths are shown to be more effective than police enforcement. The “downside” of these methods are that they’re actually effective at controlling speed, and thus are a revenue loss.
      - xorcist 5y ago
        > Actually, people tend to drive at the speed that is safe, That not remotely true in any part of the world I've visited so far.
      - Edman274 5y ago
        Not the person you replied to, but I really feel like enforcement must be a pretty substantial part of what stops people from speeding and driving recklessly, given that traffic enforcement has been de-emphasized since the start of the pandemic and the number of road fatalities has gone up more than 7 percent, even though the actual number of miles driven has gone down. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show-increased-traffic-fatalities-during-pandemic https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show... If people drive at whatever speed they think is safe, then why would the aggregate number of people dying on roadways ever go up when miles driven by the same population goes down? Here are the possibilities: 1. Driving has become more risky due to external, uncontrollable factors, like weather or road changes that motorists can't account for or 2. People are modifying their behavior. Why would they modify their behavior? The roads haven't changed. The speed limits haven't changed. What has changed? More people are dead because of extreme speed and reckless driving on roadways, which kind of suggests that traffic enforcement did at least prevent some of those deaths.
- echelon 5y ago
  I'm a staunch privacy advocate, but we have thousands of people in my state dying a year from automobile accidents. (On par with gun deaths, a figure which includes 60+% suicides.) I'm not sure I'd fight it if we lined the entire interstate highway system with plate detectors. If your average speed is above a reasonable limit (80mph on low density straightaways?), then you receive a ticket at a rate multiplied by the duration of infraction.
  - closeparen 5y ago
    Where there’s a lot of speeding to catch is low density straightaways marked 35.
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    Norway and Finland fines proportional to your yearly salary. Of course there are some problems with that, but in general I like that system more.
- kccqzy 5y ago
  You can make these cameras so dense that there is very little opportunity for speeding in between two cameras.
  - guruz 5y ago
    No need for so many cameras. You only need two :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera)#Similar_systems_in_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera)#Similar_s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Average_speed_measurement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Averag... (Sorry for the nerdy nitpick)
    - jhugo 5y ago
      flashback to Calc 101 and the Mean Value Theorem!
  - occamrazor 5y ago
    This is essentially the way it works in Switzerland. On motorways there are speed cameras every few kilometers: even with an app to warn you, it’s not worth trying to speed between cameras.
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      Oh man I got so many speeding tickets in Switzerland (like 5 in two years). They were all super minor like $50 or something? I heard it does not apply to all cantons, the Italian ones speeding is more OK. All that being said I really dislike the US system where you can pass a police car driving 75 on the 101 and he doesn't care. There has to be some enforcement of the rules.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        > All that being said I really dislike the US system where you can pass a police car driving 75 on the 101 and he doesn't care. There has to be some enforcement of the rules. The US system is a probable cause generator.
- jonathankoren 5y ago
  So? Wouldn’t people that know the cameras are there drive slower than the people that don’t? From a public safety point of view, known cameras are more effective at limiting speed than unknown ones. Reducing lane width is also shown to be a very effective speed control methodology, that does not require police enforcement.[0] Or are you concerned about a loss of local and state revenue? Seriously, the use of police for revenue generation, rather than public safety is an open secret among police and local governments.[1][2][3] [0] https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/street-design-elements/lane-width/ https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/stre... [1] https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-profit/ [2] https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/generating-new-revenue-streams/ https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/generating-new-revenue-s... [3] https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-benefits-of-fewer-nypd-arrests/384126/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-ben...
- 404mm 5y ago
  That’s simple. Just do one camera at the beginning, one at the end and you can get average speed by simple math. While it allows you to go above the speed limit, you also have to slow down to “lose” that earned time so at the end it averages back to speed limit. Go ahead and advertise this speed trap well because the more people understand how this works the better.

TigeriusKirk 5y ago

OK, let's do that.

dymk 5y ago
60 is plenty on Highway 18, especially during these wet fall and icy winter months
- zionic 5y ago
  60 as a limit on any controlled access road is an absolute joke.
shadowgovt 5y ago
It turns out to be more difficult than people want. to be certain, some speed limits are low for bad-science reasons. But the other issue is that the speed limit isn't set for the average case; it's set for the safety-limit case. As one highway engineer's blog put it colorfully (paraphrasing from memory): they aren't set to keep your decently-well-maintained 4-door sedan with tires installed this year on the road; they're set to keep the 18-wheeler driven by a sleep-deprived trucker at night during a light drizzle on the road when one of their tires blows. Variable speed limits that adjust automatically with weather and lighting conditions can help, but the signage to indicate them costs money... Way more money than a static metal road sign.