9 ms·

Cessna's looking for speeders. I wonder what the ROI on that is: I'm guessing that's not all they do.

hippocombinator 5y ago
Aren’t speeding tickets known to be really big income for local governments? They can be hundreds of dollars; I’m sure it can work out financially if they can hand out enough, which seems likely from an airplane.
- loeg 5y ago
  Can't give a specific driver a ticket from an airplane. I thought the main function of the planes was to follow extreme speeders, which has to be revenue negative -- just because there are so few and it takes so long -- but maybe a justified expense.
  - shagie 5y ago
    They are able to identify speeders without radar using fixed distance marks on the road and timing cars traveling between those marks. At that point, they are then able to give information about the car to the police on the ground for them to be pulled over.
    - jjwiseman 5y ago
      These days they all pretty much have systems like the Churchill/Shotover Augmented Reality Mapping System (ARS) which will give them target vehicle speed automatically. Even news helicopters use similar systems[1]. 1. https://shotover.com/videos/videos/kabc_tv_air7hd_with_xtreme_vision_and_skymap7_powered_by_shotover_f1_live https://shotover.com/videos/videos/kabc_tv_air7hd_with_xtrem...
      - shagie 5y ago
        That's a rather neat system. Things like overlay of the street map on the display - makes navigation for aviation more useful too. https://youtu.be/rumcjbVzzLE https://youtu.be/rumcjbVzzLE
- mywittyname 5y ago
  There are entire towns who can only afford to have a police department because of their ability to write traffic tickets.
edrxty 5y ago
They usually fly something like a 206 or 182 with a Flir gimbal and two people on board. Those types cost between $120 and $200 an hour to operate plus whatever the costs of the gimbal are (mind that the gimbal may cost as much or more than the host aircraft). The pilot and sensor operator are paid so that's another $100+/hr after benefits and such are paid. I'm guessing they just do it to subsidize the aircraft and give it something to do between calls when it's on station. The aircraft costs money just sitting in the hangar so it'll help justify the costs.
- PhantomGremlin 5y ago
  There's a "Portland Police Bureau" activity going on right now, using a C182. I think they are following a car on various local highways. https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a1d296 https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a1d296 But that's misleading. I've been told that the FBI usually pilots that particular aircraft. So the ADSB "owner" could be someone else. This also factors into economics. Stuff like FLIR might be expensive to local police agencies but that cost is totally irrelevant to the Federales. Same with salaries. The Feds are already getting paid. The incremental cost is $0. Most of the time this particular aircraft is observing various intersections in Portland. E.g. pursuing fleeing perps or monitoring street racing. Gang violence in Portland is out of control and there has been a public announcement that the FBI is helping.
JCharante 5y ago
Even if they don't generate money from that, catching people speeding is a public service. If one disagrees with the idea that speeding is bad, then why don't we raise speed limits until the speeds deemed "reasonable" at under the limit.
- rwmj 5y ago
  Sure, but fixed cameras along the route must be a lot cheaper than the plane.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    They are illegal in a lot of states. I no small part because of the egalitarian nature of them. Government officials are getting ticketed and they get the same treatment as the rest of us. Some states have ruled them unconstitutional.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    They're on Waze five minutes later.
    - Zak 5y ago
      Good. If it's actually important that people drive slower in that area, everybody knowing there are speed cameras will have that effect.
      - oh-4-fucks-sake 5y ago
        Looking at you: - Crotch rockets (driven by dudes in jorts and a t-shirt flapping in the wind) - Dodge chargers w/ aftermarket exhausts - BMWs with iridescent vehicle wraps - Lifted pickup trucks with massively oversized tires
        cheeze 5y ago
        This reads like a Reddit comment.
LorenPechtel 5y ago
The one place I've seen a Cessna on speeder patrol it certainly paid for itself. There was a spot where an interstate cut through an Indian reservation. The speed limit was set to 65 mph even though the road was better than that. A bird in the sky plus more cops than I would have thought they had were a frequent occurrence there, pulling over basically everyone who wasn't aware of the speed trap. Certainly worth it. One day they raised the limit to 75 which is far more appropriate--I've never seen the plane since, I've seen one cop a couple of times hiding behind the crest of a hill.
- themitigating 5y ago
  "Even though the road was better than that"
  - baq 5y ago
    Where I live, people flying past you at 100+mph is a common occurrence on the autostrada. (Yeah not US.) Speed limit is 80ish.
  - LorenPechtel 5y ago
    The road was engineered for speeds higher than the 65 mph limit. Obviously so as no changes were made to the road when it was changed to 75 mph.
kortilla 5y ago
What’s the ROI on responding to domestic disturbances in low income neighborhoods? What a silly way to look at safety money.
- ev1 5y ago
  That depends on how much you think a human life is worth, disappointingly.
  - robocat 5y ago
    I would like to see some numbers for implied value of life by some of the decisions we make (driving at speed, extreme sports, anything fun but risky), especially the implied value for yourself versus others like pedestrians.
EdwardDiego 5y ago
I used to live in a remote mountain village, located on one of the main highways across our central mountain range. 8km or so of the highway leading into the village was narrow and winding with no shoulder - the road lines were cut in the horse and coach days, so not designed for cars. It was surrounded by forest, often with bluffs on one side and a 20m drop on the other. People crossing the centre line on blind corners because they were driving too fast were a real hazard on that section of road. One summer (when the road was busiest) the Police ran an operation where a helicopter observed the road, and identified vehicles cutting corners, who were then pulled over outside the 8km stretch where it was safe to do so by waiting patrol cars. They only ran it for a couple of weeks, but the calming effect of it on bad driving on that stretch lasted months, it was awesome. So the Cessna might not be about making money, and more about the potential presence of the Cessna changing driving patterns increasing safety.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  I'm fine with that kind of enforcement for crossing the center line, but that's different from speed limits, and especially people that are going mildly over the speed limit on big close-to-straight roads.
- kmonsen 5y ago
  In Norway they put one of those radar boxes with a camera in places like this. They even put a sign a mile before saying there is going to be a box since the objective is not to catch people but to make the average traffic slow down.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    In the US (at least in NY), traffic tickets are considered income -especially in Manhattan. Some jurisdictions actually plan budgets on it. The same with civil forfeiture.
    - xenophonf 5y ago
      Not to be outdone by NYC, this happened in Chicago, too: > A Tribune examination of overturned red light tickets revealed evidence that the city of Chicago has quietly cast a wider net to snare drivers since switching camera vendors earlier this year amid a bribery scandal. > A before-and-after analysis of photographic evidence and interviews with experts suggests the transition to a new vendor last spring was accompanied by a subtle but significant lowering of the threshold for yellow light times. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-yellow-timing-20141009-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-yell...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sgent 5y ago
If they use those planes for other reasons (search and rescue, fire, etc.) then the cost is minimal. If the pilot weren't out there catching speeders he would be doing touch-n-goes, etc. to maintain currency. Pilots have a minimum number of hours / approaches per time period, and planes have high fixed operating costs (annual service, hanger, etc.), combined the marginal cost of catching speeders is low.

Aren’t speeding tickets known to be really big income for local governments? They can be hundreds of dollars; I’m sure it can work out financially if they can hand out enough, which seems likely from an airplane.

loeg 5y ago
Can't give a specific driver a ticket from an airplane. I thought the main function of the planes was to follow extreme speeders, which has to be revenue negative -- just because there are so few and it takes so long -- but maybe a justified expense.
- shagie 5y ago
  They are able to identify speeders without radar using fixed distance marks on the road and timing cars traveling between those marks. At that point, they are then able to give information about the car to the police on the ground for them to be pulled over.
  - jjwiseman 5y ago
    These days they all pretty much have systems like the Churchill/Shotover Augmented Reality Mapping System (ARS) which will give them target vehicle speed automatically. Even news helicopters use similar systems[1]. 1. https://shotover.com/videos/videos/kabc_tv_air7hd_with_xtreme_vision_and_skymap7_powered_by_shotover_f1_live https://shotover.com/videos/videos/kabc_tv_air7hd_with_xtrem...
    - shagie 5y ago
      That's a rather neat system. Things like overlay of the street map on the display - makes navigation for aviation more useful too. https://youtu.be/rumcjbVzzLE https://youtu.be/rumcjbVzzLE
mywittyname 5y ago
There are entire towns who can only afford to have a police department because of their ability to write traffic tickets.

edrxty 5y ago

They usually fly something like a 206 or 182 with a Flir gimbal and two people on board. Those types cost between $120 and $200 an hour to operate plus whatever the costs of the gimbal are (mind that the gimbal may cost as much or more than the host aircraft). The pilot and sensor operator are paid so that's another $100+/hr after benefits and such are paid. I'm guessing they just do it to subsidize the aircraft and give it something to do between calls when it's on station. The aircraft costs money just sitting in the hangar so it'll help justify the costs.

PhantomGremlin 5y ago
There's a "Portland Police Bureau" activity going on right now, using a C182. I think they are following a car on various local highways. https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a1d296 https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a1d296 But that's misleading. I've been told that the FBI usually pilots that particular aircraft. So the ADSB "owner" could be someone else. This also factors into economics. Stuff like FLIR might be expensive to local police agencies but that cost is totally irrelevant to the Federales. Same with salaries. The Feds are already getting paid. The incremental cost is $0. Most of the time this particular aircraft is observing various intersections in Portland. E.g. pursuing fleeing perps or monitoring street racing. Gang violence in Portland is out of control and there has been a public announcement that the FBI is helping.

JCharante 5y ago

Even if they don't generate money from that, catching people speeding is a public service. If one disagrees with the idea that speeding is bad, then why don't we raise speed limits until the speeds deemed "reasonable" at under the limit.

rwmj 5y ago
Sure, but fixed cameras along the route must be a lot cheaper than the plane.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  They are illegal in a lot of states. I no small part because of the egalitarian nature of them. Government officials are getting ticketed and they get the same treatment as the rest of us. Some states have ruled them unconstitutional.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  They're on Waze five minutes later.
  - Zak 5y ago
    Good. If it's actually important that people drive slower in that area, everybody knowing there are speed cameras will have that effect.
    - oh-4-fucks-sake 5y ago
      Looking at you: - Crotch rockets (driven by dudes in jorts and a t-shirt flapping in the wind) - Dodge chargers w/ aftermarket exhausts - BMWs with iridescent vehicle wraps - Lifted pickup trucks with massively oversized tires
      - cheeze 5y ago
        This reads like a Reddit comment.

LorenPechtel 5y ago

The one place I've seen a Cessna on speeder patrol it certainly paid for itself. There was a spot where an interstate cut through an Indian reservation. The speed limit was set to 65 mph even though the road was better than that. A bird in the sky plus more cops than I would have thought they had were a frequent occurrence there, pulling over basically everyone who wasn't aware of the speed trap. Certainly worth it. One day they raised the limit to 75 which is far more appropriate--I've never seen the plane since, I've seen one cop a couple of times hiding behind the crest of a hill.

themitigating 5y ago
"Even though the road was better than that"
- baq 5y ago
  Where I live, people flying past you at 100+mph is a common occurrence on the autostrada. (Yeah not US.) Speed limit is 80ish.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  The road was engineered for speeds higher than the 65 mph limit. Obviously so as no changes were made to the road when it was changed to 75 mph.

kortilla 5y ago

What’s the ROI on responding to domestic disturbances in low income neighborhoods? What a silly way to look at safety money.

ev1 5y ago
That depends on how much you think a human life is worth, disappointingly.
- robocat 5y ago
  I would like to see some numbers for implied value of life by some of the decisions we make (driving at speed, extreme sports, anything fun but risky), especially the implied value for yourself versus others like pedestrians.

EdwardDiego 5y ago

I used to live in a remote mountain village, located on one of the main highways across our central mountain range. 8km or so of the highway leading into the village was narrow and winding with no shoulder - the road lines were cut in the horse and coach days, so not designed for cars. It was surrounded by forest, often with bluffs on one side and a 20m drop on the other. People crossing the centre line on blind corners because they were driving too fast were a real hazard on that section of road. One summer (when the road was busiest) the Police ran an operation where a helicopter observed the road, and identified vehicles cutting corners, who were then pulled over outside the 8km stretch where it was safe to do so by waiting patrol cars. They only ran it for a couple of weeks, but the calming effect of it on bad driving on that stretch lasted months, it was awesome. So the Cessna might not be about making money, and more about the potential presence of the Cessna changing driving patterns increasing safety.

Dylan16807 5y ago
I'm fine with that kind of enforcement for crossing the center line, but that's different from speed limits, and especially people that are going mildly over the speed limit on big close-to-straight roads.
kmonsen 5y ago
In Norway they put one of those radar boxes with a camera in places like this. They even put a sign a mile before saying there is going to be a box since the objective is not to catch people but to make the average traffic slow down.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  In the US (at least in NY), traffic tickets are considered income -especially in Manhattan. Some jurisdictions actually plan budgets on it. The same with civil forfeiture.
  - xenophonf 5y ago
    Not to be outdone by NYC, this happened in Chicago, too: > A Tribune examination of overturned red light tickets revealed evidence that the city of Chicago has quietly cast a wider net to snare drivers since switching camera vendors earlier this year amid a bribery scandal. > A before-and-after analysis of photographic evidence and interviews with experts suggests the transition to a new vendor last spring was accompanied by a subtle but significant lowering of the threshold for yellow light times. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-yellow-timing-20141009-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-yell...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sgent 5y ago

If they use those planes for other reasons (search and rescue, fire, etc.) then the cost is minimal. If the pilot weren't out there catching speeders he would be doing touch-n-goes, etc. to maintain currency. Pilots have a minimum number of hours / approaches per time period, and planes have high fixed operating costs (annual service, hanger, etc.), combined the marginal cost of catching speeders is low.