29 ms·

China Bans Flightradar24

275 points by imartin2k 5y ago

jaywalk 5y ago
> CCTV reported that Beijing Municipal National Security Bureau found data-sharing poses a security threat to military aircraft. FlightRadar24 (and indeed any flight "radar" that consumers have access to) relies on ADS-B data, which is transmitted by the planes themselves. Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these services.
- dym_sh 5y ago
  unless army planes go undercover and need to transmit that data to keep disguise of a regular civil aircrafts
  - Kye 5y ago
    A plane that's obviously not what it claims to be to experienced observers will only make people more curious. edit: for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 It would be just another government plane, but they went and made it interesting.
  - queuebert 5y ago
    Does this happen?
    - _joel 5y ago
      I'd assume so, even in shipping, NASA recently disguised the James Webb shipment to French Guiana as a commercial vessel and set it's arrival destination somewhere in europe. So it's highly likely this happens in military context with flights too.
  - jjwiseman 5y ago
    There is at least one U.S. Marshals aircraft that seems to intentionally broadcast a deceptive transponder ID. See https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1455982715480653824 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/145598271548065382... and https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1415462136512278529 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/141546213651227852...
- celticninja 5y ago
  Yes but it does allow people to track the private jets flown by the Chinese government.
  - fortuna86 5y ago
    Bingo.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    The irony is Flightradar24 accepts requests not to display sensitive aircraft and some of the other ADS-B aggregators don't...
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      But isn't telling a foreign entity "Hey, please censor information of these planes" almost equal to telling the jurisdiction of that entity "Hey, do you want a list of our planes you should pay attention to?". The Chinese government is involved with the big companies there, so they must assume the same is true for the US government and companies...
      - notahacker 5y ago
        Not really. They don't have to state that they're the Chinese government when requesting the data is removed, and I'm sure some of the aircraft already not displayed are very boring aircraft with very boring owners. It's not like the US government doesn't know where these aircraft are already and have an abundance of ways to identify whether they're "of interest" or not
- brian_herman 5y ago
  At least I can still see flightradar still in china.
- jjwiseman 5y ago
  There can be a bit more nuance to it than that. FlightRadar24 and other tracking sites do use ADS-B data broadcast by aircraft themselves, but they also use other information. There are other ways that aircraft that aren't broadcasting ADS-B can still show up on a map. 1. Mode S: Even if an aircraft isn't broadcasting its own position via ADS-B, if it's using Mode S its position can be multilaterated if you have a cooperating network of receivers (which is what FR24, ADS-B Exchange, etc. have). 2. TIS-B: An aircraft could be using Mode A/C, which generally can't even be multilaterated, or it could have its transponder turned off entirely and ATC can still use primary radar returns to broadcast a synthetic ADS-B-type target for safety, so that other nearby aircraft will see it show up on their traffic displays. The data won't tell you what aircraft it is, but you know where it is. And in fact, it's frequently possible for experienced observers to figure out what kind of aircraft it is and who's flying it based just on its track, speed, and altitude. I frequently see contacts on ADS-B Exchange in the Los Angeles area that are obviously fighters flying without ADS-B or Mode S, showing up as TIS-B. Military aircraft on sensitive operations can turn off their transponders, and I don't know if China uses TIS-B, but I just wanted to clarify that there is data besides ADS-B that gets used, and that a network of receivers has capabilities that a single receiver doesn't.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Iridium also has ADS-B receivers onboard the latest satellites going up to enable global coverage, although I don’t have context as to data access and pricing. https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads-b/ https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads...
    - andrepew 5y ago
      I believe for the satellites to pick you up you need ADS-B antenna diversity (an antenna on the top and bottom of the plane) which I don’t believe is very common yet because it has cost.
    - papercrane 5y ago
      You can buy access to the data from FlightAware. I've never been in a position to see the pricing, though I'm sure it's expensive.
- jMyles 5y ago
  > Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these services. In addition to jjwiseman's comment that Mode S tracking and TIS-B are still widely useful (something you can easily see for yourself in many parts of the world, including around the 305th Bomb Wing in Tampa (near my recent home of St. Pete), which are a joy and marvel to watch), I want to add one more comment: I don't think it's reasonable to take as granted that any particular party (especially those which are taxpayer-funded ) "should" refrain from transmitting surveillance and telemetry data. Rather, I hope we develop a society in which anybody who is flying a large, fast, dangerous piece of metal through the sky is required to report, via such an open standard, these details for all to see.
- xyzzy21 5y ago
  The US DOD uses a different system specifically for this reason!
  - rjsw 5y ago
    Sometimes it leaves ADS-B enabled to send a message. During the evacuation of Afghanistan there were B-52s over Kabul that could be tracked on Flightradar24.
    - paganel 5y ago
      The same for the NATO-attached airplanes flying close to the Russian air-space in the Black Sea area.
    - jjwiseman 5y ago
      Not to mention the Mi-17 (with possible CIA links) used in evacuating the "Salt Pit" black site: https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620 https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620
novok 5y ago
The Chinese government probably wants a local only edition of this that they can control better, in typical China fashion.
- jbirer 5y ago
  That's what I noticed with Baidu Maps. They kicked out Google Maps and now the only way you can see anything on China is thru Baidu Maps that has no English interface.
dirtyid 5y ago
PRC air corridors are concentrated in coast, commercial and military aviation are heavily intermixed because it's where population and security considerations are. Does not take much to capture a lot of data for useful analysis. Somewhat related, Ministry of State Security commented on 3 security breaches to Xinhua recently. Case #3 was meteorolgical observation equipment setup near sensitive military base that sent data to overseas org. Insinuation seems to be it was part of crowdsource intel gathering for commercial purposes that ultimately had links to foreign military. Open source intel OSINT has been blowing up, so PRC looking to secure data.
speakspokespok 5y ago
Speaking for the USA, the ADS-B data stream you see on FlightAware's commercial feeds has military and police aircraft data filtered, even if those aircraft are broadcasting that information. While ADS-B data reception is public, certain data types must be removed in your commercial offering per FAA. Near me in Puget Sound / Seattle are two intl airports, several military bases including a nuclear sub base, plus we're near the US / Canadian border. Air traffic as you can imagine is very interesting and includes state police Cessna's at night cruising for people speeding on Highway 18, military transport through JBLM (military base) but no fighter jet ADS-B. There's commercial air traffic, hobby planes, private jets, hospital and news helicopters. There's flight paths and local flight patterns. My current mystery are the small, black, unmarked DHS (I think!) helicopters that cruise Discovery Park lighthouse every few hours. They don't show up on ADS-B at all. There's more but you get the idea of how cool this all is. SDR is just wild. All you need is a Pi 3 and the PiAware image, the antenna and the 1050 filter they suggest. PiAware has a local webinterface that shows everything it's picking up but will be filtered later by FlightAware.
- andylynch 5y ago
  Have you tried ADS-B Exchange? They don’t use FAA data or apply their filters.
- matthewmcg 5y ago
  Unfiltered cooperatives like adsbexchange.com are also good ways to see what's up there that might be filtered on FR24 or FlightAware.
  - bokohut 5y ago
    This, TLDR other comments. Others do filter data and the proof is in comparing in real-time all the sites along with actually seeing the vehicle and its location in the sky as some data can be delayed. I do not claim to be a plane spotter but given where I live I have picked up interest in the last several years after U.S. president 45 was elected and even more now with 46. 46 goes home nearly every weekend and the FAA flight restriction circumference borders right over my house. I also have the locational benefit of being inline with the flight path and approach for Air Force N for 46s comings and goings by plane which I have seen multiple times and I did see 45s helicopter once flying over enroute to NYC. Others may not be aware that there is the active deployment of fighter jets and air refueling tankers that support this FAA VIP air restriction. Since 46 has been elected and nearly every weekend he is home we experience non stop fighter jet thrust rumble at our location. One will not find these jets on any public data plane location stream yet the persistent presence of the air refueling tankers and the rumble from jets burning fuel on the ready makes it obvious of the jets presence for those in the know. Given the proximity to major airports the air refueling tanker is listed on adsbexchange and fly's in circles sun up to sun down topping off those jets. A few Sundays back we had pristine clear skys for both PV collection as well as noob plane spotting. Using binoculars on a tripod and sky scanning based on the tankers locations I believe I saw the back side of a F22 coming in to top off. I did get a picture about an hour later of an unknown jet type refueling off the air tanker after months of trying, I just smiled. As to the point of this "China" ban I personally know the value of such data in my own accomplishments as I see it akin to social engineering. Granted it is not war time so the tanker is broadcasting but I find it an oversight by those in charge to advertise where mother goose is as the goslings are never far behind.
jmnicolas 5y ago
Unless I misunderstand, I don't see the point: you can get this data with a RaspberryPi and an antenna available everywhere (and probably built in China). Military aircraft that shouldn't be seen should just disable data transmission.
- blamazon 5y ago
  If I was a vendor in Shenzhen selling SDR modules to the public, and I saw this come across the propaganda wire, I would think hard about if it is still worth it to keep selling the modules to Chinese customers. China knows that direct control is hard to achieve at scale. They know they can simply state their intentions and let the chilling effects take over. Banning Flightradar24 is a statement of intention that every one of their citizens can see.
  - mianos 5y ago
    Any Realtek TV tuner USB stick can be used. They are for sale everywhere in China.
    - blamazon 5y ago
      There was a time before the Great Firewall too. These things can change. I bet China isn’t too happy about over the air video transmission that can cross borders either, and would prefer for citizens to use approved digital streaming methods.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    My question is what does it accomplishes for China? Foreign armies and terrorists can still get plane positions, only average citizen can't. What's the point?
    - blamazon 5y ago
      The state might want to move people or things secretly by air.
tzs 5y ago
OT: anyone happen to know what it means on FlightAware when a plane is colored red? I open FA when I hear a low jet, and recently I noticed that some of them were red. The red ones were always NetJets Aviation flights. Zooming out, I could see that there were red ones scattered all around the US, and they all seemed to be NetJets Aviation. This lasted for at least a few days, but lately NetJets Aviation flights have shown up in the same yellow as everyone else, and now zooming I out I don't see any colored red.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  The FAQ [0] says: What do the color-coded airport marker dots indicate? The color dots represent the flight conditions at a particular airport from the METAR (aviation weather report) when such data is available: Purple: LIFR Red: IFR Blue: MVFR Green: VFR I think that implies that planes get colored based on their flight modes as well? [0]: https://uk.flightaware.com/about/faq#metarcolors https://uk.flightaware.com/about/faq#metarcolors
  - imadethis 5y ago
    Pretty much 100% of all passenger/cargo jets will be flying under IFR rules, so that wouldn't be the reason unless most planes are red.
bondolo 5y ago
"a citizen with the surname Li had signed up" Well that certainly narrows it down.
RattleyCooper 5y ago
It's not worrying at all, that China acts like everyone who isn't Chinese is out to get them or undermine them /s Nobody who's done anything shady has ever acted like that in the history of the world /s
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  It's actually the opposite. Liars suspect everybody else is lying to them. Funny that. The CCP doesn't reciprocate on any treaties they sign. So liars. Most of their weapons are built with money from the West, and pointed at the US (they don't need hypersonic missiles or nuclear submarines for any of their neighbors.)
qwertyuiop_ 5y ago
>Chinese Weibo users are also asking why the country hasn’t ‘recovered’ Chumi Gyatse waterfall in Arunachal Pradesh from India. Some suggest occupying it. Hey USA there is some sweet little territory in Canada lets ask our government to occupy it.
ngcc_hk 5y ago
Once again they can have all yours data, market and technology but not the other way round.
mrtweetyhack 5y ago
China Lies
Goety 5y ago
I wonder what their marketed replacement is going to be

275 points by imartin2k 5y ago

> CCTV reported that Beijing Municipal National Security Bureau found data-sharing poses a security threat to military aircraft. FlightRadar24 (and indeed any flight "radar" that consumers have access to) relies on ADS-B data, which is transmitted by the planes themselves. Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these services.

dym_sh 5y ago
unless army planes go undercover and need to transmit that data to keep disguise of a regular civil aircrafts
- Kye 5y ago
  A plane that's obviously not what it claims to be to experienced observers will only make people more curious. edit: for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 It would be just another government plane, but they went and made it interesting.
- queuebert 5y ago
  Does this happen?
  - _joel 5y ago
    I'd assume so, even in shipping, NASA recently disguised the James Webb shipment to French Guiana as a commercial vessel and set it's arrival destination somewhere in europe. So it's highly likely this happens in military context with flights too.
- jjwiseman 5y ago
  There is at least one U.S. Marshals aircraft that seems to intentionally broadcast a deceptive transponder ID. See https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1455982715480653824 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/145598271548065382... and https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1415462136512278529 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/141546213651227852...
celticninja 5y ago
Yes but it does allow people to track the private jets flown by the Chinese government.
- fortuna86 5y ago
  Bingo.
- notahacker 5y ago
  The irony is Flightradar24 accepts requests not to display sensitive aircraft and some of the other ADS-B aggregators don't...
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    But isn't telling a foreign entity "Hey, please censor information of these planes" almost equal to telling the jurisdiction of that entity "Hey, do you want a list of our planes you should pay attention to?". The Chinese government is involved with the big companies there, so they must assume the same is true for the US government and companies...
    - notahacker 5y ago
      Not really. They don't have to state that they're the Chinese government when requesting the data is removed, and I'm sure some of the aircraft already not displayed are very boring aircraft with very boring owners. It's not like the US government doesn't know where these aircraft are already and have an abundance of ways to identify whether they're "of interest" or not
brian_herman 5y ago
At least I can still see flightradar still in china.
jjwiseman 5y ago
There can be a bit more nuance to it than that. FlightRadar24 and other tracking sites do use ADS-B data broadcast by aircraft themselves, but they also use other information. There are other ways that aircraft that aren't broadcasting ADS-B can still show up on a map. 1. Mode S: Even if an aircraft isn't broadcasting its own position via ADS-B, if it's using Mode S its position can be multilaterated if you have a cooperating network of receivers (which is what FR24, ADS-B Exchange, etc. have). 2. TIS-B: An aircraft could be using Mode A/C, which generally can't even be multilaterated, or it could have its transponder turned off entirely and ATC can still use primary radar returns to broadcast a synthetic ADS-B-type target for safety, so that other nearby aircraft will see it show up on their traffic displays. The data won't tell you what aircraft it is, but you know where it is. And in fact, it's frequently possible for experienced observers to figure out what kind of aircraft it is and who's flying it based just on its track, speed, and altitude. I frequently see contacts on ADS-B Exchange in the Los Angeles area that are obviously fighters flying without ADS-B or Mode S, showing up as TIS-B. Military aircraft on sensitive operations can turn off their transponders, and I don't know if China uses TIS-B, but I just wanted to clarify that there is data besides ADS-B that gets used, and that a network of receivers has capabilities that a single receiver doesn't.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Iridium also has ADS-B receivers onboard the latest satellites going up to enable global coverage, although I don’t have context as to data access and pricing. https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads-b/ https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads...
  - andrepew 5y ago
    I believe for the satellites to pick you up you need ADS-B antenna diversity (an antenna on the top and bottom of the plane) which I don’t believe is very common yet because it has cost.
  - papercrane 5y ago
    You can buy access to the data from FlightAware. I've never been in a position to see the pricing, though I'm sure it's expensive.
jMyles 5y ago
> Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these services. In addition to jjwiseman's comment that Mode S tracking and TIS-B are still widely useful (something you can easily see for yourself in many parts of the world, including around the 305th Bomb Wing in Tampa (near my recent home of St. Pete), which are a joy and marvel to watch), I want to add one more comment: I don't think it's reasonable to take as granted that any particular party (especially those which are taxpayer-funded ) "should" refrain from transmitting surveillance and telemetry data. Rather, I hope we develop a society in which anybody who is flying a large, fast, dangerous piece of metal through the sky is required to report, via such an open standard, these details for all to see.
xyzzy21 5y ago
The US DOD uses a different system specifically for this reason!
- rjsw 5y ago
  Sometimes it leaves ADS-B enabled to send a message. During the evacuation of Afghanistan there were B-52s over Kabul that could be tracked on Flightradar24.
  - paganel 5y ago
    The same for the NATO-attached airplanes flying close to the Russian air-space in the Black Sea area.
  - jjwiseman 5y ago
    Not to mention the Mi-17 (with possible CIA links) used in evacuating the "Salt Pit" black site: https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620 https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620

novok 5y ago

The Chinese government probably wants a local only edition of this that they can control better, in typical China fashion.

jbirer 5y ago
That's what I noticed with Baidu Maps. They kicked out Google Maps and now the only way you can see anything on China is thru Baidu Maps that has no English interface.

dirtyid 5y ago

PRC air corridors are concentrated in coast, commercial and military aviation are heavily intermixed because it's where population and security considerations are. Does not take much to capture a lot of data for useful analysis. Somewhat related, Ministry of State Security commented on 3 security breaches to Xinhua recently. Case #3 was meteorolgical observation equipment setup near sensitive military base that sent data to overseas org. Insinuation seems to be it was part of crowdsource intel gathering for commercial purposes that ultimately had links to foreign military. Open source intel OSINT has been blowing up, so PRC looking to secure data.

speakspokespok 5y ago

Speaking for the USA, the ADS-B data stream you see on FlightAware's commercial feeds has military and police aircraft data filtered, even if those aircraft are broadcasting that information. While ADS-B data reception is public, certain data types must be removed in your commercial offering per FAA. Near me in Puget Sound / Seattle are two intl airports, several military bases including a nuclear sub base, plus we're near the US / Canadian border. Air traffic as you can imagine is very interesting and includes state police Cessna's at night cruising for people speeding on Highway 18, military transport through JBLM (military base) but no fighter jet ADS-B. There's commercial air traffic, hobby planes, private jets, hospital and news helicopters. There's flight paths and local flight patterns. My current mystery are the small, black, unmarked DHS (I think!) helicopters that cruise Discovery Park lighthouse every few hours. They don't show up on ADS-B at all. There's more but you get the idea of how cool this all is. SDR is just wild. All you need is a Pi 3 and the PiAware image, the antenna and the 1050 filter they suggest. PiAware has a local webinterface that shows everything it's picking up but will be filtered later by FlightAware.

andylynch 5y ago
Have you tried ADS-B Exchange? They don’t use FAA data or apply their filters.
matthewmcg 5y ago
Unfiltered cooperatives like adsbexchange.com are also good ways to see what's up there that might be filtered on FR24 or FlightAware.
- bokohut 5y ago
  This, TLDR other comments. Others do filter data and the proof is in comparing in real-time all the sites along with actually seeing the vehicle and its location in the sky as some data can be delayed. I do not claim to be a plane spotter but given where I live I have picked up interest in the last several years after U.S. president 45 was elected and even more now with 46. 46 goes home nearly every weekend and the FAA flight restriction circumference borders right over my house. I also have the locational benefit of being inline with the flight path and approach for Air Force N for 46s comings and goings by plane which I have seen multiple times and I did see 45s helicopter once flying over enroute to NYC. Others may not be aware that there is the active deployment of fighter jets and air refueling tankers that support this FAA VIP air restriction. Since 46 has been elected and nearly every weekend he is home we experience non stop fighter jet thrust rumble at our location. One will not find these jets on any public data plane location stream yet the persistent presence of the air refueling tankers and the rumble from jets burning fuel on the ready makes it obvious of the jets presence for those in the know. Given the proximity to major airports the air refueling tanker is listed on adsbexchange and fly's in circles sun up to sun down topping off those jets. A few Sundays back we had pristine clear skys for both PV collection as well as noob plane spotting. Using binoculars on a tripod and sky scanning based on the tankers locations I believe I saw the back side of a F22 coming in to top off. I did get a picture about an hour later of an unknown jet type refueling off the air tanker after months of trying, I just smiled. As to the point of this "China" ban I personally know the value of such data in my own accomplishments as I see it akin to social engineering. Granted it is not war time so the tanker is broadcasting but I find it an oversight by those in charge to advertise where mother goose is as the goslings are never far behind.

jmnicolas 5y ago

Unless I misunderstand, I don't see the point: you can get this data with a RaspberryPi and an antenna available everywhere (and probably built in China). Military aircraft that shouldn't be seen should just disable data transmission.

blamazon 5y ago
If I was a vendor in Shenzhen selling SDR modules to the public, and I saw this come across the propaganda wire, I would think hard about if it is still worth it to keep selling the modules to Chinese customers. China knows that direct control is hard to achieve at scale. They know they can simply state their intentions and let the chilling effects take over. Banning Flightradar24 is a statement of intention that every one of their citizens can see.
- mianos 5y ago
  Any Realtek TV tuner USB stick can be used. They are for sale everywhere in China.
  - blamazon 5y ago
    There was a time before the Great Firewall too. These things can change. I bet China isn’t too happy about over the air video transmission that can cross borders either, and would prefer for citizens to use approved digital streaming methods.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  My question is what does it accomplishes for China? Foreign armies and terrorists can still get plane positions, only average citizen can't. What's the point?
  - blamazon 5y ago
    The state might want to move people or things secretly by air.

tzs 5y ago

OT: anyone happen to know what it means on FlightAware when a plane is colored red? I open FA when I hear a low jet, and recently I noticed that some of them were red. The red ones were always NetJets Aviation flights. Zooming out, I could see that there were red ones scattered all around the US, and they all seemed to be NetJets Aviation. This lasted for at least a few days, but lately NetJets Aviation flights have shown up in the same yellow as everyone else, and now zooming I out I don't see any colored red.

jeroenhd 5y ago
The FAQ [0] says: What do the color-coded airport marker dots indicate? The color dots represent the flight conditions at a particular airport from the METAR (aviation weather report) when such data is available: Purple: LIFR Red: IFR Blue: MVFR Green: VFR I think that implies that planes get colored based on their flight modes as well? [0]: https://uk.flightaware.com/about/faq#metarcolors https://uk.flightaware.com/about/faq#metarcolors
- imadethis 5y ago
  Pretty much 100% of all passenger/cargo jets will be flying under IFR rules, so that wouldn't be the reason unless most planes are red.

bondolo 5y ago

"a citizen with the surname Li had signed up" Well that certainly narrows it down.

RattleyCooper 5y ago

It's not worrying at all, that China acts like everyone who isn't Chinese is out to get them or undermine them /s Nobody who's done anything shady has ever acted like that in the history of the world /s

redis_mlc 5y ago
It's actually the opposite. Liars suspect everybody else is lying to them. Funny that. The CCP doesn't reciprocate on any treaties they sign. So liars. Most of their weapons are built with money from the West, and pointed at the US (they don't need hypersonic missiles or nuclear submarines for any of their neighbors.)

qwertyuiop_ 5y ago

>Chinese Weibo users are also asking why the country hasn’t ‘recovered’ Chumi Gyatse waterfall in Arunachal Pradesh from India. Some suggest occupying it. Hey USA there is some sweet little territory in Canada lets ask our government to occupy it.

ngcc_hk 5y ago

Once again they can have all yours data, market and technology but not the other way round.

mrtweetyhack 5y ago

China Lies

Goety 5y ago

I wonder what their marketed replacement is going to be